2 pdr HE

[Stalins Organ]

A little off topic I guess, but here's a reference to a 2 pounder HE shell in thePacific - in a New Zealand Valentine - http://www.kithobbyist.com/AMPSNewZealand/KiwisInArmour/tshist.htm

I know there's always some debate about HE whenever 2 pdrs are mentioned - some people seem to think that they _couldn't" fire HE - which is of course nonsense - it was just that the British doctrine at he start of the war was that the 2 pdr was an AT gun, so didn't need HE and wasn't equipped with it.

I have also seen a reference to HE being issued to an AT batter based in Singapore - the theory being that the Japs didn't have tanks, so the guns needed the HE to be able to do anything at all. Which is at least logical and consistant with Brit doctrine of the time!! lol

[Michael Emrys]

I'm still looking for information on this subject. As of now it seems that the British did develop an HE round for the 2 pdr., but that it was either not issued in the field or not widely issued.

It seems certain that Australia did in fact independently develop an HE round and used it in the field. It wouldn't surprise me if they shared this munition with New Zealand.

Michael

[Jeff Duquette]

Nice find Mike the bike. The 1st NZ Army Tank Brigade reference seems to imply (if I am interpreting it correctly) that 2-pdr HE was available for at least demonstration purposes by the end of 1942. However, the reference to the Singapore AT battery is an implication that the British were manufacturing and distributing 2-pdr HE by at least late 41 to very early 42? Do you by chance still have access to the Singapore reference?

[Olle Petersson]

AFAIK it was used in the Pacific, for some reason unknown to me.

The reason for the UK not to use it was that the HE was crappy, regular MG fire was more effective.

Even the 3" howitzer on the CS tanks proved to have a crappy HE, and was therefore mostly used to fire smoke rounds instead.

Who'd need HE when you have 3 MGs (like on the A9) anyway...?

Cheers

Olle

[Stalins Organ]

No I don't have the reference unfortunately, or I'd have been quoting it a long time ago!!

I remember it, vaguely, from an account of an AT battery stationed in Singers that I read probably 20-25 years ago!!

Why was it used in the Pacific? Well because there weren't any tanks to speak of to fire AP at of course!!

[Stalins Organ]

Just on a whim I did a search for "anti tank guns in Singapore" and found this picture:

http://www.iol.net.au/~conway/ww2/singapore/barkiantitank.html?category=Picture

This is one I remember from the book I mentioned above, so that's a start

The full site is at http://www.iol.net.au/~conway/ww2/singapore.html#17jan

The unit is 2/4 Australian Anti-tank battery.

Another interesting page on British tank guns is http://www.miniatures.de/html/int/shellsB.html

[ 04-11-2001: Message edited by: Mike the bike ]

[Jeff Duquette]

first link picture...is that a KO'd Japanese Tank out to the right front of the 2-pdr. ?

[Stalins Organ]

Yes - I forget what type tho.

IIRC the text I remember said that the Jap tank tactics were pretty much crap - they came along the road, closed up, not firing or anything - a turkey shoot for the anti-tank gunners (but that's 20+ years ago I read it remember!!)

[Simon Fox]

The picture in question is of Australian AT gunners in action at Bakri, Malaya, 18 January 1942. On the morning of 18 January 1942 Japanese tanks advanced along the road towards Bakri, south west Malaya. Here they were fired on by two 2-pdr guns of the 2/4th Australian Anti-Tank Regiment. The Australians destroyed eight tanks and their crews.

I have absolutely no doubt that 2pdr HE was produced and available for issue early in the war. IIRC I did see it claimed once that some BEF units in France 1940 were issued with 2pdr HE (I am following that one up). I would concur that it was not widely issued for doctrinal reasons probably because the Brits thought that a HE round of that calibre was largely ineffective and that tanks should use their MGs against infantry.

Indirect evidence for its actual use:

One of the reasons I have seen cited for the unpopularity of the Littlejohn adaptor for the 2-pdr was the inability to fire the HE round when it was fitted, this suggests the HE round was used. In fact the Brits went so far as to design a Littlejohn HE round, strange but true (source: some crazy obscure ammunition journal ).

Many tanks obsolete in the European theatre were not so in the Pacific. The Australians used Matildas and I think valentines too extensively in the Pacific and they had HE for those 2pdrs.

There were quite a few different rounds for the 2-pdr by the time we get to the CMBO stage and I often wonder what round BTS are modelling the Brit armoured cars with the "40mm" gun using. Maybe some of the ammo gurus can jump in but I fink there were AP, APCR, APCBC, Littlejohn (MkI & II) at least and also of course HE and maybe APHE? or APCBCHE?

That site (http://www.miniatures.de/html/int/shellsB.html} seems to have a few mistakes. "no HE for the 6pdr" ?!

[Stalin's Organ]

The 6 pdr started with no HE ammo - I don't know why 'cos I would have thoughtthey'd have the doctrine sorted out by then, but they didn't apparently.