Porajkl Posted March 23, 2001 Share Posted March 23, 2001 Untill your forces don't identify the model of enemy tank, there is no enemy crew experience showed. But when they do, you automatically know if the enemy tank is green or elite. This is unrealistic - how can your troops know what crew is inside that Sherman hiding 400 meters away? Do tanks have some sort of flags which indicate its experience? AFAIK they don't. So, enemy tank experience should not be visible until the end of the battle - for realism sake. For that matter I think (i can't remember right now) that every unit in CM after it is fully identified, shows its experience. That is unrealistic. Maybe it would be fine if BTS could implement this idea (no enemy experience status) into CM2. just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ckoharik Posted March 23, 2001 Share Posted March 23, 2001 Yes, it is not very realistic. But consider this within the bounds that CM is not using reality in some cases but an abstraction. You are on the front line, facing off against a unit that has been identified in general and for which you have a general idea of the overall unit capability to include experience. Then, when you actually engage the unit in combat and can positively identify the elements of that unit (e.g.: Panzer 221) then you might know the general experience. Of course, this is an abstraction and I'm pulling this out of the nether regions. [This message has been edited by ckoharik (edited 03-23-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfpack Posted March 23, 2001 Share Posted March 23, 2001 You would also get a general idea by how well the unit is fighting back, of course, this would not be an exact reckoning. I think perhaps when you ID the unit you should get a status that has a bit of variability, +1 -1 or so. ------------------ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurricane Posted March 23, 2001 Share Posted March 23, 2001 Originally posted by Wolfpack: You would also get a general idea by how well the unit is fighting back, of course, this would not be an exact reckoning. I think perhaps when you ID the unit you should get a status that has a bit of variability, +1 -1 or so. This seems reasonable. In the real world you could tell the difference between a green enemy and an elite enemy by the way they move, how fast they reload and so on, so you should get some indication of level, but not the 100% id you get now. It would be stupid to have the player find out this by himself (like counting seconds between reloads or command delays). I am really in favour of minimizing micromanagement, while still going for maximum realism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyrene Posted March 23, 2001 Share Posted March 23, 2001 Funny enough an experienced observer can make out quite a bit about the level of experience and morale of enemy troops just by sight. Things such as brand new uniforms, overly cautious movement, bunching up, equipment that is worn at perfect regulation and many physical clues can peg troops as "green", also the quality of incoming fire will also tell if you're facing seasoned troops or not. If you don't believe me, go play paintball one day and see the difference when you run up against some experienced players. Of course, you can't glean any physical clues from AFV's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ckoharik Posted March 23, 2001 Share Posted March 23, 2001 Originally posted by Gyrene: Of course, you can't glean any physical clues from AFV's Good points. However, what would think if you saw spotless Panther G in front of you when your unit was reported to be facing the 2nd SS Panzer? 1-)Well, golly, it's brand new so the crew must either be green or have had their last ride shot out from under them. Either way they must not be very good. 2-)Holy crap!!! Veteran (at least) unit who warranted a nice new factory fresh Panther. -Chris [This message has been edited by ckoharik (edited 03-23-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakalwe Posted March 23, 2001 Share Posted March 23, 2001 OTOH, uniforms and general appearance of units can be very deceiving. For example, Prussian Uhlans discovered this in the Battle of Ligny when they charged a slovenly looking and clearly undisciplined French unit composed of overage conscripts. To the Prussians' dismay, it turned out to be the 4th Grenadiers of the Imperial Guard, who hadn't received their uniforms due to their hasty mobilization... Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidas Posted March 23, 2001 Share Posted March 23, 2001 Originally posted by Gyrene: Of course, you can't glean any physical clues from AFV's Didn't they paint on their AFVs to a limited extent, like airplane crews, to show kills? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted March 23, 2001 Share Posted March 23, 2001 Originally posted by Leonidas: Didn't they paint on their AFVs to a limited extent, like airplane crews, to show kills? Tankers often painted kill rings on their gun tubes, but I'm not sure how visible they were in the middle of a battle. ------------------ "As for Croda's spelling it was unlikely to be unintentional since he tries to put the ass in everything." - Simon Fox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abteilung Posted March 23, 2001 Share Posted March 23, 2001 Originally posted by Mannheim Tanker: Tankers often painted kill rings on their gun tubes, but I'm not sure how visible they were in the middle of a battle. Crew's displaying their success as alternating white on black stripes such Wittman's Tiger from 1944 would seem as though it would be hard to miss. In all reality, it would just serve to break up the tank's silhouette at range. When you, if you, got close enough it would be apparent enough already that you were facing an experienced crew without having to study the gun barrel. Add to that some whitewash in winter and you have a tank that is no easier to spot (remember that seeing something isn't the same as spotting it) than any other manned by a well seasoned crew. [This message has been edited by Abteilung (edited 03-23-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted March 23, 2001 Share Posted March 23, 2001 Originally posted by Abteilung: Crew's displaying their success as alternating white on black stripes such Wittman's Tiger from 1944 would seem as though it would be hard to miss. [This message has been edited by Abteilung (edited 03-23-2001).] This may well be true, but in my experience as an M1 tanker, I can't recall ever looking through the sites and analyzing the armor facing me. All you see is "tank", or maybe the specific model of tank, and that's about it. You'd be surprised how easily details disappear into the background in a training battle, much less in a real one (not that I'd know, but I can imagine). Perhaps someone has a little more information on this than our purely anecdotal examples. I can't recall reading much about it either way. On the other hand, the comments made above regarding the actions of a tank "giving away" its experience level have merit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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