JunoReactor Posted March 10, 2001 Share Posted March 10, 2001 TWO platoons of PZ IVs, 4 tanks each. My fellow commanders dream about that stuff since Kursk. Yet, I had them, accompanied by a company of Panzergrenadiers. All on halftracks. Then M10s appeared. 4 of them, on the gorge ahead of us. My plattons manuevered into the position, we started trading shots. I had them outnumbered 2 to 1, what could have gone wrong? For THREE straight minutes, I watched the carnage that ensued. I ended up losing all 8 of my tanks, either disabled or burning by the end of the 3rd minute. 8 pieces of useless steel! With them I could have pushed damned Monty back to sea! On the other side of the battlefield laid a valiant M10, still alive. Three shells bounced off its magical turret. Rest veered wildly off, as if blown away by a huge hairdryer mounted on its hull. Its gunner, having the reflexes of a cat, eye of an eagle and luck of a rabbit (two feet.. laugh, I'm venting here) dispatched my tanks one by one. The crews which got out alive from my burning tanks were summarily executed by the now-panzerless Panzergrenadiers. I didnt even have to give them the order. To add insult to injury, instead of the air support that fat-ass thief Goering promised too all of us, a P47 appeared and picked off my remaining halftracks a few turns later. I screamed and yelled, I kicked the computer, I threw a few choice words towards BTS' general direction. Only now my face is turning back to its normal color, and that only because I started smoking again after having quit for two weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmaker Posted March 10, 2001 Share Posted March 10, 2001 Well, maybe the M18 had an elite crew? There's no way it should've survived a hit from a PzKpfw IV's 75mm gun though. Shermans are paper thin but the M18 is even more so, especially with open tops. Oh if you're pretty certain you're fighting in good weather, you may want to invest even on a cheap 20mm AA gun. Since you said you had SdKfz halftracks did you have a mortar variant or even Mortars on foot? Those open tops are quite vulnerable to that. In addition, those PzKpfw IV's don't have that good armor. A good gun yes, but that 73-80mm frontal armor are in boxlike angles like a Tiger. But it doesn't have the thickness of a Tiger to shrug it off. Treat it like a Sherman with a better gun. Better yet, forsake 2 platoons of PzKpfw IV's for the price of a Panther platoon. ------------------ "Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcm1947 Posted March 10, 2001 Share Posted March 10, 2001 Makes you wonder doesn't it? That's pretty amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted March 10, 2001 Share Posted March 10, 2001 Originally posted by Warmaker: Well, maybe the M18 had an elite crew? There's no way it should've survived a hit from a PzKpfw IV's 75mm gun though. Shermans are paper thin but the M18 is even more so, especially with open tops. Oh if you're pretty certain you're fighting in good weather, you may want to invest even on a cheap 20mm AA gun. Since you said you had SdKfz halftracks did you have a mortar variant or even Mortars on foot? Those open tops are quite vulnerable to that. In addition, those PzKpfw IV's don't have that good armor. A good gun yes, but that 73-80mm frontal armor are in boxlike angles like a Tiger. But it doesn't have the thickness of a Tiger to shrug it off. Treat it like a Sherman with a better gun. Better yet, forsake 2 platoons of PzKpfw IV's for the price of a Panther platoon. Maybe you read a different AAR than I did, but I didn't see any mention of an M18 and SdKfz halftracks. Hate to nitpick here, but he specifically stated M10s and halftracks, and when speaking of halftracks carrying Pazergrenadiers, that usually means SPW251/1 HTs. ------------------ "Upon my signal, unleash Hell."--General Maximus, Gladiator "Aim small, miss small."--Mel Gibson, The Patriot "I do what I likes, and I likes what I do."--Darrell Hammond (portraying Bill Clinton), SNL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 10, 2001 Share Posted March 10, 2001 Maximus- SPW - Schutzen Panzer Wagen SdKfz - SonderKraftfahrzeug German haltrack is designated SdKfz 251, vehicle class SPW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Martin Cracauer Posted March 11, 2001 Share Posted March 11, 2001 Originally posted by JunoReactor: TWO platoons of PZ IVs, 4 tanks each. [...] Then M10s appeared. 4 of them, on the gorge ahead of us. [...] For THREE straight minutes, I watched the carnage that ensued. I ended up losing all 8 of my tanks, either disabled or burning by the end of the 3rd minute. You didn't move them during those three turns? If not, are you sure all 8 panzer could see all 4 M10 all the time? Otherwise, it's a matter of simple statistics that the M10 could have moved so that at each point in time only a minority of Pz could be seen by a majority of M10. Also, if the M10 were already standing and you were moving on contact, they get the better first shot. High ground or even hull down for the M10, maybe? On the other hand, the experience level of the crews doesn't change the chances in such encounters much, according to my testing, at least for non-green/conscript units. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Posted March 11, 2001 Share Posted March 11, 2001 Also, when the Panzer IV had a "lock" on let say an infantery unit, he would have to load a AP shell first.( HE shell out..AP in ) I make this mistakes sometimes by giving a friendly tank a "soft" target while there is a enemy tank nearby. Cost several seconds -> knocked out Panzer [This message has been edited by Monty (edited 03-10-2001).] [This message has been edited by Monty (edited 03-10-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Martin Cracauer Posted March 11, 2001 Share Posted March 11, 2001 AFAIK, CMBO does not model different kinds of shells already being in a gun, respectivly changing is done in zero time. Earlier threads discussed that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Posted March 11, 2001 Share Posted March 11, 2001 CMBO does not model different kinds of shells already being in a gun, respectivly changing is done in zero time. Hehehehe......zero is fast yes. In Panzer Elite..changing shells takes at least 5 seconds. What is the realistic time and is CM 2 using that maybe ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Martin Cracauer Posted March 11, 2001 Share Posted March 11, 2001 I don't think it is worth modeling. The question here is how much game value do you gain for how much investment on the programming side and the player's mind time? Such a change would not only require program logic, but an interface change, so that the player had some control about the shell currently loaded, but not all since the TacAI would have to overwrite the player's choice on events during the turn. Whatever logic the TacAI follows probably raises more objections than not implementing it. I am also not sure it is an overall play value raise at all. The tactical considerations for the shell type are not very deep and mostly guessing, even worse, guessing from what other units spotted (tank near?). On the other hand, the player had to manage this choice once it is built into the games, thus further adding to the micromanagement. The Panzer Elite you were controlling just one tank, all the time (no autonomous turn actions) and had realistic spotting information for your tank. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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