Historical Troop Selection for a Homemade Scenario?

[Guest Ace]

Hi there,

I'm currently playing around and making a map to resemble St. John's, Newfoundland, my hometown. I'd like to simulate a german assault on the city, but I'm unsure of the troops that would normally be used, both for the germans and the defending Canadian/British.

Anyone out there have any suggestions?

[Michael Dorosh]

Defending troops would be from St. John's Defences; I don't know if troops in Canada were organized as standard battalions, but you can at least find out which units were there - I have a page on the Seventh Division on my website; the 6th and 8th Divisions were stationed in BC.

http://homedivs.freehosting.net/sevenorbat.htm

Newfoundland was as you obviously know not a part of Canada at the time, but Canadian troops did man the defences. I presume 7th Div would assist whatever troops were on garrison duty there in the event of a German invasion. The units would depend on the time frame. The 7th Div only existed between March of 1942 and early 1943.

[Michael Dorosh]

Just checked my Stacey -

Canada took responsiblity for Newfoundland's defence early in the war. After the fall of France, troops were sent to protect Gander and Botwood. Many units that later went overseas (like the Black Watch and Royal Regiment of Canada) served in Newfoundland before moving to the UK.

In August 1940 Canada was formally given responsibility for Newfoundland's defence, and Atlantic Command was created. The British had given bases to the US as part of Lend Lease, and so American troops also garrisoned parts of Newfoundland from August 1940 on.

In Autumn of 1941, a Canadian garrison moved ito Goose Bay to protect the new airbase being built there.

When Germany surrendered in 1945, 2788 Canadian soldiers of all ranks were still on duty in Newfoundland, 289 more in Labrador.

This info comes from Stacey's "The Canadian Army 1939-1945".

You might also add units of the Veteran's Guard of Canada (similar to the Home Guard in Britain) as well as local reserve units (Green troops would probably do for these). This begs the question of what The Royal Newfoundland Regiment would do in such an event - they were never mobilized for WW II as far as I know, though many Newfoundlanders served in the Royal Artillery. If you're from St. John's, you know all about Beaumont Hamel, yes? I think that's why the Royal Newfoundland Regiment never went overseas in WWII. Whether or not they formed part of the defences in St. John's is an interesting question. Does the Regiment have a museum there?

If you have a map of St. John's, be sure to send it to 109Gustav, he collects home town maps!

[This message has been edited by Michael Dorosh (edited 03-25-2001).]

[Guest Ace]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Just checked my Stacey -

If you have a map of St. John's, be sure to send it to 109Gustav, he collects home town maps!

I will - his site is what gave me the idea to try...

Thanks for the info. I'm living in Vancouver at the moment, so I can't check out any museums yet. You've given me some ideas, though. Thanks again.

[Guest Ace]

Michael,

What would the normal complement of the 10th-13th AT batteries look like? As it stands now, I've given the Canadians six 6-pounders, six 17-pounders and some 25pd howitzers and arty spotters (with TRPs) for anti-infantry capability. All the units are green except for the spotters, which are regulars or vets.

I playtested the scenario as the Canadians and gave the germans 3 KTs, 4 Panthers, 5 Panzer IVHs, 3 StuGs (late), and 2 StuHs. I just wanted to test the AT capabilities of the defense. It was clearly too much, as the Canadians won with only 4 guns being knocked out.

I was going to give the Canadians some reinforcements in the form of some American armor "racing" in from Gander, but they weren't even needed...

Anyway, I wanted to see if the AT defense I used was in any way historical. If it is, I'll just have to beef up the german assault group. Of course, adding other components of the force might help too. I might try playing the german side tonight and prep the target first to see if that makes a difference.

I'll post some pics of the map later tonight so you can see what type of challenges the terrain presents.

Derek

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Ace:

Michael,

What would the normal complement of the 10th-13th AT batteries look like? As it stands now, I've given the Canadians six 6-pounders, six 17-pounders and some 25pd howitzers and arty spotters (with TRPs) for anti-infantry capability. All the units are green except for the spotters, which are regulars or vets.

I playtested the scenario as the Canadians and gave the germans 3 KTs, 4 Panthers, 5 Panzer IVHs, 3 StuGs (late), and 2 StuHs. I just wanted to test the AT capabilities of the defense. It was clearly too much, as the Canadians won with only 4 guns being knocked out.

I was going to give the Canadians some reinforcements in the form of some American armor "racing" in from Gander, but they weren't even needed...

Anyway, I wanted to see if the AT defense I used was in any way historical. If it is, I'll just have to beef up the german assault group. Of course, adding other components of the force might help too. I might try playing the german side tonight and prep the target first to see if that makes a difference.

I'll post some pics of the map later tonight so you can see what type of challenges the terrain presents.

Derek

To be honest, I'm not sure what type of guns were used in Canada - if they had any 6 pounders to spare, or if they all went overseas. Quite possibly they trained on 2 pounders (40 mm) in Canada. My references on arty units are scanty but I can ask around at some messageboards. I'll see if I can dig anything up - unless someone else on the board has some answers?

I'm not sure if 17 pounders would have been used in Canada for training or any other purpose - my gut reaction is that they would have been needed overseas but I really don't know for sure.

[Michael Dorosh]

10th AT Battery - Mobilized May 1942 as part of 8th AT Regiment. (8th AT Regiment converted to field artillery (25 pounders) in May 1943)

Served at Petawawa and Sussex. Disbanded 15 May 1943.

11th AT Battery - Mobilized May 1942, served in Petawawa (ON) and Sussex (NB). Disbanded May 1943

12th AT Battery - raised May 42, served Petawawa and Sussex, disbanded May 43

13 th AT Battery - mobilized May 42, served Petawawa and Sussex (spot a trend here?) and dsbanded May 43.

My source (Battery Flashes by D.W. Falconer) does not list equipment types. No doubt they were towed, probably 6 pounders. I would imagine coastal artillery would be the main defences in St. John's; had the Germans actually landed I'm not sure how much of a land garrison would have been there to stop them.

[Guest Ace]

I was simulating the bigger guns by placing most of the 17 pounders at the entrance to the harbour. In the scenario they would be able to swing around to fire inland. Not all that realistic, I guess.

I had a couple of 17 pders down in the city. I imagine if I left the 17 pds up at the harbour entrance, with the city to be defended by 6 pders it might be better, although I'd probably have to get rid of the german KTs, since there are no real flanking assets to speak of intitially.

I was assuming the Canadians would be short on manpower, since once the guns were gone, I only had a company of men for the entire city...

I'm having some trouble uploading to photopoint, so I'll post the shots later.

[Guest Ace]

Here's some shots of the map. Hope you like them.

A view through the "narrows" to the town. You can see Signal Hill with Cabot Tower on the right and the Basilica dominating the hill in the background.

The view from the top of Signal Hill.

Looking out through the narrows from the Basilica. Too bad the sky texture ruins the illusion of the ocean stretching for miles

Here's a view from the southeast, where the germans are attacking from.

[This message has been edited by Ace (edited 03-29-2001).]

[Berlichtingen]

For the Germans, the likely attack force would be Fallschirmjägers. An airborne attack to capture the port so they can land regular forces (not that they would be able to do that, but then again, Canada wouldn't be their first target if they could).