Locking Threads?

[Gremlin]

Mainly for Madmatt, though I'm curious to see what others think:

I used to moderate a major game forum myself, so I understand the need to steer the conversation in a profitable and peaceful direction, and to lock threads when they get totally out of hand. As someone involved with the game industry, I also know the need to set the record straight about your product. But why lock a thread just because one or two people resort to insinuations, insults, or incorrect statements? Why not just warn them directly and/or ban them? That would leave the rest of us to carry on our discussions intelligently. While threads might nominally revolve around CM, as they obviously should here, they also tend to bring in broader issues that aren't, it seems to me, unworthy of discussion.

Thanks.

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[This message has been edited by Gremlin (edited 01-27-2001).]

[Bruno Weiss]

Gremlin wrote:

But why lock a thread just because one or two people resort to insinuations, insults, or incorrect statements? Why not just warn them directly and/or ban them?

Not clear in what context you meant the word "ban" to be used. Ban from the thread, or ban from the forum. Banning from the thread would be difficult since in the final ayalysis it would have to be a voluntary observance and constant vigilance of the moderator thereafter to patrol that thread. And while I realize your discussing a particular or singular thread, if one follows the course and history of the forum, banning from the forum for the type of incidents you've cited, at least in my estimation, would probably result in total of about five persons left on the forum. Not including yourself and any newbies ofcourse. Though the attrition rate would probably average out the same.

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"Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses

open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 01-27-2001).]

[von Lucke]

Personally, I find the use of some 3M tape wrapped liberally around the end of the pipe works just fine for this purpose...

Oops, sorry --- !

[Gremlin]

Yes, I mean banning from the forum when someone violates the agreement they accede to when joining. Obviously care needs to be taken with that measure. I don't advocate banning people on a whim.

It's frustrating to be carrying on an intelligent discussion only to have it slammed shut because someone else is causing problems or somehow annoying the powers that be

I'd submit, btw, that forums like these are at least as important for fostering a community of players as they are for providing direct feedback to the developer. A strong community built around a game can work wonders for its longevity and publicity. It shouldn't matter if people want to rehash topics (particularly when new people join the forum every day and haven't submitted their views on those topics) or talk in circles.

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[This message has been edited by Gremlin (edited 01-27-2001).]

[David Aitken]

Gremlin wrote:

> It shouldn't matter if people want to rehash topics (particularly when new people join the forum every day and haven't submitted their views on those topics) or talk in circles.

Many topics start up with a view to convincing BTS to add certain features to the game (a roster, nationality modifiers, better graphics etcetera). These discussions will not end until BTS has given their judgement on the matter. When a topic comes up on which BTS has already stated their position, to discuss it further is both pointless and will demand more of BTS's time to restate things they have already said. In these cases those concerned should refer to previous discussions on the same subject, instead of starting up a new thread to whine about the same old things until BTS has to intervene yet again.

David

[Gremlin]

Not every who makes suggestions is whining. Not all topics, new or repeated, make suggestions about what the game should include. Not all repeated topics rehash the same issues from the same light. And if someone wants to say "Hey, put a Sturmtiger in CM" or whatever, it doesn't hurt anyone--not that that's really the sort of thing I'm referring to.

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[David Aitken]

And not all topics get locked. Those that do are generally of the kind I have described above, or are off-topic, or have become a heated argument. There have been several rehashed discussions on the board lately which have remained open, so complaining about BTS's readiness with the padlock is unnecessary.

[Bruno Weiss]

The forum does have rules that it enforces, and people have been banned. Even some that others seem to have thought immune (why I don't know, but based upon perceived prestige I guess). However, the words you used Gremlin, were "insinuations, insults, or incorrect statements?" You did not say obscenities, violations of FCC code, or physical threats.

Now, in my estimation the words you used might amount to a Mrs. Manners morale code which would allow for a latitude of such wide interpretations and perception variances (in someone's estimation), as to equate to the banning of just about everyone on here at one point or another, including a good many more of those who might be perceived as immune, save for they pay the electric bill. The general rule of thumb having been resolved that if you slam, look to get slammed back, unless you do violate the here-to-fore established golden rules of gross obscenities, FCC violations, or physical threats. But attempting to interpret insinuations, insults, or incorrect statements could lead to an endless spitwad throwing contest of; "aw, he said she said but he meant she meant, and haha he said a Panther has a 50mm gun, so he gets tossed", type of environment, which would have the opposite effect of building a community.

Whass a madder, you dun like our lil community here? That's an insult! Trow the bum out!

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"Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses

open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 01-27-2001).]

[Gremlin]

LOL. No, that's not what I meant. I was referring to these threads in particular:

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/015482.html

and

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/015449.html

The first clearly dealt with both CM and broader implications about game design and marketing, and was generally polite and interesting--imo, naturally

The second, at its best, also had a bearing on CM, because there are real philosophical/moral questions raised by the wargaming hobby, imo. Clearly some of the racist and nationalist statements were meant as disrespectful slurs and needed to be dealt with, but not necessarily at the expense of the discussion, which admittedly started to devolve into a shouting match about Zionism and related matters

If a thread is simply asking or suggesting a specific thing be added/removed/changed in CM, of course BTS should come in and say what their take on the matter is and close the thread, since it becomes pointless after that, but if the discussion is broader than that, why close it?

Btw, Bruno, I said, "But why lock a thread just because one or two people resort to insinuations, insults, or incorrect statements?" I didn't say it should be locked. And since the forum belongs (i.e., they licensed the software to create their own board) to BTS, they can of course do what they want with it within their license agreement, and make their own rules about what constitutes offensive or unwarranted behavior, whether a violation of FCC rules or something of a lesser nature. My whole point is not to have morality cops running around willy nilly, but rather to let discussions take their course and deal directly with "offenders" (in BTS's eyes), should there be any, and only lock threads if they totally and irrevocably devolve into insult matches, or what have you.

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[This message has been edited by Gremlin (edited 01-27-2001).]

[Bruno Weiss]

Okay, I get your meaning now a little clearer, but I think sometimes the thread is locked just because the discussion has run its course, in the moderators opinion. I see many of them locked without any insults, or insinuations at all, but just because in the moderators opinion there is nothing more to it of value added quality for CM. Then too, there are a good number of threads, as one would expect, that either have no bearing at all to CM or BTS, or history at all, but are just OT topics of small talk. Something to be expected in a community. And there are other threads that the initiator passionately believes has some great value to CM, or BTS, or history but who's belief isn't necessarily shared by everyone (sometimes anyone), else. They weren't naughty for starting it necessarily, though maybe suffering from a temporary high rung on the self envisioned ivory pedestal, but in the moderators opinion at some point and again, without insult or insinuation, the thread has run its course. I've also seen threads that were kept open after some vicious infighting, because in the moderators opinion (I presume), there still "was" merit to the discussion. So, its a moderators call of judgement.

I guess what I'm saying is, IMHO, the moderators we have do a pretty good job at things and I'm not personally uncomfortable with how they do it. I don't always agree with them on every single thing, but all in all I have to hand it to them that with all things considered, they do a good job in a tough environment of having to make some fairly often, dicey calls. I've said before, they are in a similar position to being the only Irish cop on beat in the lower East side on a Saturday night. But IMO, if a thread gets locked that I really wanted to stay open, I'll take it with the overall good as to the percentage of averages on how generally speaking, for me anyhow, things seem to be run pretty well. Just my opinion, we don't have to agree. (Hehe, warming up my Panthers in the background, loading uranium tipped shells and mustard gas mortar rounds).

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"Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses

open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 01-27-2001).]

[Gremlin]

I think you can see how the way the graphics thread was closed sounds rather dismissive and loftty itself, and by its own admission was based on one poster's tone. Not all the fans are ignorant of the game industry or are unqualified to discuss it, nor do we all resort to ad hominems. Happily, we can agree to disagree You can tell your tankers they have leave today and can head to the Kneipe for some Bier

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[This message has been edited by Gremlin (edited 01-27-2001).]

[Bruno Weiss]

Here ya go, have a snort on me!

http://www.lauf.de/weissbier/index.html

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"Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses

open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[David Aitken]

Gremlin wrote:

> I think you can see how the way the graphics thread was closed sounds rather dismissive and loftty itself, and by its own admission was based on one poster's tone. Not all the fans are ignorant of the game industry or are unqualified to discuss it, nor do we all resort to ad hominems.

You have to consider that, on a regular basis, people come along and start claiming they know what BTS should be doing, or how easy it would be to do. Very often these people will not take no for an answer. They see something elsewhere, and suddenly decide that BTS should be doing it too, despite clearly having no experience or understanding of BTS's operations and objectives.

So when people start up a thread arguing that BTS should be doing what they suggest, they can expect to get short shrift. Taken at face value, they maybe deserve it slightly less, but on the whole it happens to often to humour everybody who thinks they know better.

David

[Gremlin]

Bruno, prost!

David, quite right. But suggesting something, if well intentioned, should be differentiated from people literally telling BTS what to do or claiming they know better (which in fact they might, actually--BTS are no more infallible than the rest of us, though they have more first-hand experience about certain game design and publishing issues than many, but not all, of the fans do). When a game designer opens itself up to fan discussion and criticism, they can expect both the suggestions and the ultimatums

BTS should be happy they have an ardent and growing fan base that cares enough to suggest, question, and even complain and whine. And I think that since they set a high new standard with CM, they should also be held to a higher standard to "keep them honest," so to speak.

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[Henri]

FWIW, althought I am against censorship, I think that personal attacks on eh forum should not be tolerated. It seems to me that eeryone can recognize the emotional-charged words tht are conducive to flame words, in addition to the clear insults.

There is a big difference between "I think that is wrong" and "That's a bunch of bull".

One method to keep flame wars down would be for the moderators to warn the offending person or persons once, and if they don't calm down, expel them from the forum for a week or two. Repeated offenders cold be expelled for longer periods. No one shuld be expelled for more than a year.

To do this without resorting to censorship requires jusgment, but the moderators should have that, should they not?

I would add that I don't share the opinion of some who believe that every "wrong" posting should be batted down repeatedly until it dies. Variety of opinion is a necessary part of inteligent discourse and a harebrained opinion is not going to pollute the whole CM community.Left undisturbed after a single refutation, such postings will sink into oblivion instead of heading the top of the list as a flame war.

Henri

[David Aitken]

Gremlin wrote:

> BTS are no more infallible than the rest of us, though they have more first-hand experience about certain game design and publishing issues than many, but not all, of the fans do).

Ahem... I might suggest that BTS are the authority on BTS.

> When a game designer opens itself up to fan discussion and criticism, they can expect both the suggestions and the ultimatums

In the rare cases when a game designer is willing not only to listen to customers, but actually engage in discussion with them, certainly they can expect all sorts of things, but they're not obliged to take any of it. Just because we have the opportunity to speak to BTS, and they actually care to listen and respond, does not give us the right to tell them what to do.

> BTS should be happy they have an ardent and growing fan base that cares enough to suggest, question, and even complain and whine.

Constructive contributors will indeed suggest and question. Complaining and whining more often than not comes from those elements who do not have a strong case, but instead merely wish to have their personal preferences implemented. Such people also have a habit of claiming that what will satisfy them will also make the company more successful, which is a poor argument.

> And I think that since they set a high new standard with CM, they should also be held to a higher standard to "keep them honest," so to speak.

Why do the standard-setters of the genre need to be held to their own standards? The only reason it is of benefit for fans to offer suggestions and ideas, and to question what BTS has done, is because BTS is willing to listen. In other words, they are their own strict regulators.

There are plenty of companies who need to be taken to account by their customers – in fact, probably the vast majority of companies on the planet, let alone software companies – but BTS is not one of them. It is amusing to see people take all of the exceptional things BTS does for granted, and start whining anew on that basis.

David

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by David Aitken:

Gremlin wrote:

> It is amusing to see people take all of the exceptional things BTS does for granted, and start whining anew on that basis.

David

Joni Mitchell said "you don't know what you got til it's gone." Sad but true - well stated David. Generally speaking, if I see someone lock up a thread, I get the feeling the moderator has had enough of the topic and I refrain from mentioning it. Other people feel the burning need to start a new thread to apologize, or even continue the subject, or start talking about censorship.

I don't know about any of you, but if my grandmother breaks wind at the dinner table, we all pretty much ignore it and change the subject and the moment passes quickly. What possesses people to immediately start up new threads concerning locked ones is beyond me. This is BTS' house and we are guests - not rent payers.

[Vanir]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

This is BTS' house and we are guests - not rent payers.

That pretty much sums up my perspective. BTS put this board up to talk about CM, not about whether John McCain is a war hero or a war criminal or whatever. IIRC it states this clearly in the user agreement when you sign up, so no one can claim ignorance. Have I seen threads locked that I was interested in? Yes. But they're the ones paying for the bandwidth and software, so it's their call, and I respect that.

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You've never heard music until you've heard the bleating of a gut-shot cesspooler. -Mark IV

[Slapdragon]

Sometimes I see the BTS lock as saying: well, nothing is coming of this, lets kill it off before it gets nasty.

In watching the threads, BTS is looking for ways to make the game for historically accurate while making it more enjoyable. You get a thread like the recent graphic thread, were the person starting it had little concept of what was involved and less of how the industry works, and BTS will watch calmly for a few hours or a day. Suddenly, when it becomes obvious that this person has nothing new and no one else is bringing anything to the table - the lock goes on. No flames needed and no reason to lock it other than the level of the converstaion islow (in in this case, BTS has gone over it before Matt killed the thing.)

[Guest MajorH]

Something else to consider is that the Combat Mission developers and staff actually read the messages in these forums - unlike most company sponsored forums in my experience.

Time spent reading and answering forum notes from customers is time not spent on coding. Introducing a little bit of discipline into the forum in the interest of reducing useless threads seems like a reasonable tradeoff to me for active developer participation.

Just my opinion - not speaking for Battlefront here.

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Best regards, Major H

majorh@mac.com

[Gremlin]

David, my point clearly wasn't that BTS didn't know about their own company or game--such an accusation would be nonsensical--but rather that what they say shouldn't be held as sacrosanct and unworthy of intelligent debate or questioning. The latter shows a genuine, honest fan interest in their game and shouldn't be dismissed readily, imo. Developers can make mistakes, and gamers (the two can overlap, of course) can be right.

I never said or implied anyone has the right to tell any game designer what to do, but clearly part of this forum's raison d'etre is to allow questions and suggestions about the game. Should a discussion about the CM series be closed because it's been covered in some way before and/or because one or two posters in that particular discussion cross the bounds of good taste or makes what might be perceived as foolish statements? I would say no.

My point about holding BTS to a higher standard meant that, as far as their products go, they've clearly demonstrated excellence in the past, and it could only be in their and our (the customers') best interest if they receive as much constructive criticism and as many intelligent questions and suggestions as possible, regardless of whether the topic at hand is particularly pleasing to them.

That said, as I've already noted, I'm fully aware that BTS rules the roost here. It's great to have a forum where the devs interact with the fans, but that comes at a certain price, namely a certain restriction of freedom to discuss controversial topics--rightly or wrongly. I'd say if they relate directly to CM, wrongly.

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[This message has been edited by Gremlin (edited 01-27-2001).]

[David Aitken]

Gremlin wrote:

> it could only be in their and our (the customers') best interest if they receive as much constructive criticism and as many intelligent questions and suggestions as possible

Constructive criticism is very welcome here, there would be no point in the forum if it were not, and many improvements have been made to the game by this process. However, changes are only made when someone does their homework and states a well supported case for what they have in mind. In terms of the content of CM, this usually entails factual information or anecdotal evidence.

In terms of the game engine, suggestions and requests can be made, and BTS will happily address problems or bugs, but they will not happily be told how to design or program the game. So when someone suggests an improvement, that is fine, but it should end there. If they continue to argue for this improvement, they are going beyond constructiveness. Some of the biggest arguments in the history of this board have been over design issues. These are purely matters of opinion, and BTS is the only authority. They have every right to summarily lock up threads on design or programming issues after the suggestion has been made, and this is usually a good idea – but that said, such threads, like most on this forum, are left open until they become too heated or have run their course.

David

[Bruno Weiss]

Michael Dorosh wrote:

I don't know about any of you, but if my grandmother breaks wind at the dinner table, we all pretty much ignore it and change the subject and the moment passes quickly.

Well we certainly don't. First the head of the table warns her about the offense, after which if there is a repeat of the obnoxious behavior then we ban her from the table for starting flames and not saying nicely; "Pardon me please, I would like to flatuate now", instead of just letting one rip.

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"Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses

open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 01-27-2001).]