Nabla Posted January 21, 2001 Share Posted January 21, 2001 I am a gentleman, and I would never, ever cheat in CM. Unfortunately I also have a hidden dark side, which tells me that it has, in its feeble little mind, made the following analysis about cheeting in QB PBEM games. Let us call PBEM players A and X, and A is the one initiating the play (sending the first PBEM file). Case 1: A wants to cheat Random units: First of all, if A and X decide to use random units (computer chooses them), A can cheat as follows: A makes a new battle n times, and selects the one which has the best forces given the map, weather etc. Player chosen units: The problem appears in another form when both users choose their units. In this case A can't see the units immediately, but is asked to save the PBEM file immediately. However, A can of course load the saved PBEM file, give password for side X, take a look at the terrain and still send the original saved file to X (that is, without the opponent password A selected when he was looking at the terrain). The only way to stop this from happening (assuming that the logic still looks the same to the users, more to say about how to fix this later on) were for the program to create the terrain in X's computer randomly. The randomness could be based on some property of the computer, time, X's password or the state of the random generator of CM in X's computer. Since I've examined the situation in just one computer I am unable to test the first one, but I couldn't get any variation into the terrain using the last three ones. Case 2: X wants to cheat Random units: X has no possibility to cheat here, since he can not affect units or terrain by the time the QB gets to him. Player chosen units: This has been handled correctly too, since X can only select units, and then has to send the file back to A again (without seeing terrain). So, to summarize, it seems like X can not cheat. How to fix this? There are a number of ways to fix the problem, the question is how to do it so that the number of needed emails between A and X is minimized. You can probably make this shorter, but here's one example of how things can be done (I think ). 1. A chooses password and QB parameters and units if necessary, sends to X. 2. X chooses password and units if necessary, X's computer generates terrain and random units if necessary, X sends to A. Note that X can not act as A since A has already given password. 3. A enters setup phase, where he can see terrain and units, but can no longer change them or act to be X. A set's up, then sends to X. 4. X sets up. The exact set of actions in each step require knowledge about how randomness is generated when terrain and units are selected. Note The length of this message may not reflect the seriousness of the problem, but BTS is correct when stating that people should justify and test their comments before complaining here, and I've tried to learn my lesson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamstersss Posted January 21, 2001 Share Posted January 21, 2001 There should be a note regarding the game you're playing, so that Operation Lizard can't occur or the player just lies about the settings. However, this won't happen, if it does, until CM2, so the best way to stop this is to play with people that you trust. ------------------ "My mortar refuses to fire! He's Yellow!" -Me "Send him to CM2." -Mace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabla Posted January 21, 2001 Author Share Posted January 21, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nabla: ... In this case A can't see the units immediately, but is asked to save the PBEM file immediately. ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Oops, had to quote my own message, that would of course have to be ... In this case A can't see the terrain immediately, but is asked to save the PBEM file immediately. ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabla Posted January 21, 2001 Author Share Posted January 21, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Elijah Meeks: There should be a note regarding the game you're playing, so that Operation Lizard can't occur or the player just lies about the settings. However, this won't happen, if it does, until CM2, so the best way to stop this is to play with people that you trust. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If I understand correctly, you are referring to another problem, namely the one that the other player can not be sure about the parameters with which the QB was created. This is also a problem, since it can be used to put a smokescreen in front of the other player. But at least you can get information (although indirectly) about the parameters by taking a look at the end result. However, the cheating I have described above can be used for example to find out what units the other player has (when selected automatically), or to select units that match the terrain, and there is no way for the other player to know this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goofy Posted January 21, 2001 Share Posted January 21, 2001 I think Elijah has the correct answer. "....so the best way to stop this is to play with people that you trust." I've played single games with strangers before who I really didn't care to play with a second time. Some times this is just a matter of my taste such as "historical" vs "gamey" or as it has been put.."the spirit of the game". I try to make sure my philosophy of what we're setting up matches my opponent's, that way we each know what to expect somewhat. If I feel there is something fishy in a ladder or tourney situation then I report my suspicions to the moderator and wait and see. My experience is that I won't be the only one they cheat! Besides, there's always the brick to the forehead and the pool to drag them thru! Hehehe! ------------------ Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries! [This message has been edited by Goofy (edited 01-21-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabla Posted January 21, 2001 Author Share Posted January 21, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goofy: I think Elijah has the correct answer. "....so the best way to stop this is to play with people that you trust." I've played single games with strangers before who I really didn't care to play with a second time. Some times this is just a matter of my taste such as "historical" vs "gamey" or as it has been put.."the spirit of the game". I try to make sure my philosophy of what we're setting up matches my opponent's, that way we each know what to expect somewhat. If I feel there is something fishy in a ladder or tourney situation then I report my suspicions to the moderator and wait and see. My experience is that I won't be the only one they cheat! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I agree, all player should be gentlemen, and probably the number of cheaters is very low. But I do think that these kinds of holes should be fixed if it the required effort is moderate, hopefully in CM2. You wouldn't have to keep wondering (especially in tournaments) which guys are the good ones, you know... Anyway, the problem has been reported and BTS can decide what to do. I'm going to continue my career as a gentleman player. And a very nice battle to you too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvet Posted January 21, 2001 Share Posted January 21, 2001 I'm a very laid back type I think, but there are two things that really piss me off. Someone lying to me, and someone cheating at a game. I can honestly say that in all my years of gaming, even as a little kid, I never cheated in a game. It sucks that there are a few loopholes in this system, and I hope they are plugged in CM2. Also it kind of bothers me that in certain situations my own integrity could be called into question and I couldn't really back it up. I just recently started playing multiplayer (I've played 4 games so far). In a one of those we let the computer pick our forces and used the random weather setting. In another we picked forces, but used random weather. In two games we got fog and the computer bought me submachinegun forces, and so did I. Pretty convenient for me, and I could understand if my opponent had the question of cheating in the back of his mind. It never came up, but I would be more comfortable if that couldn't enter my opponents mind at all. That is especially true since I'm a new player on the scene, so nobody really knows me. ------------------ Craig "Only a madman would consider the possibility of war between the two states (France and Germany), for which, from our point of view, there is no rational or moral ground." - Chancellor Adolf Hitler, Oct. 14, 1933 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted January 21, 2001 Share Posted January 21, 2001 The simplest solution is that if someone cheats, don't play with them again. Eventually they won't be able to play with anyone, and the world will be perfect again as far as CM is concerned. Listen to your old football coach "Winners never quit/cheat/slack and quitters/cheaters/slackers never win. Meeks, you mean that there are people who trust you? Just kidding, just kidding. ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. -Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvet Posted January 22, 2001 Share Posted January 22, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 109 Gustav: The simplest solution is that if someone cheats, don't play with them again. Eventually they won't be able to play with anyone, and the world will be perfect again as far as CM is concerned. Meeks, you mean that there are people who trust you? Just kidding, just kidding. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That sounds reasonable and good, but how do you really know if they are cheating unless they are blatant about it. If you are playing with computer purchased forces and random weather and he gets submachineguns in dense fog did he get lucky or did he cheat? Hey, Elijah is one of the four people I've played so far (I think he is one of those who ended up playing in the fog with me). I trusted him, but does he still trust me? Oh by the way, this newbie took him with a total victory too, lol. ------------------ Craig "Only a madman would consider the possibility of war between the two states (France and Germany), for which, from our point of view, there is no rational or moral ground." - Chancellor Adolf Hitler, Oct. 14, 1933 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 The easiest way to cheat as the QB setup designer is to lie. Tell the opponent that most settings are random, while in practise the only random setting is the computer pick of his force. This allows the designer to pick his own units based on the exact weather, time of day and ground conditions, as well as the map settings. The opponent has to manage with what he gets. Is this cheating? - Yes, if the absolute outcome of the battle is used for some ladder system or so. - Not necessarily, if the actual result is decided upon with an agreement after the battle. Based on the units at hand and the use of them in the given conditions. With these premises any player can win regardless of what the in-game AAR says. Cheers Olle ------------------ Strategy is the art of avoiding a fair fight... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaka Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 Originally posted by Nabla: ... Player chosen units: The problem appears in another form when both users choose their units. In this case A can't see the units immediately, but is asked to save the PBEM file immediately. However, A can of course load the saved PBEM file, give password for side X, take a look at the terrain and still send the original saved file to X (that is, without the opponent password A selected when he was looking at the terrain)... This is not possible to do, since the map generated by the computer X will be allays different from the one on the fake game of the computer A. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Broken! Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Nabla: ... Player chosen units: The problem appears in another form when both users choose their units. In this case A can't see the units immediately, but is asked to save the PBEM file immediately. However, A can of course load the saved PBEM file, give password for side X, take a look at the terrain and still send the original saved file to X (that is, without the opponent password A selected when he was looking at the terrain)... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by Tanaka This is not possible to do, since the map generated by the computer X will be allays different from the one on the fake game of the computer A. A cheater can also use Nabla's technique to optimize his units. Many units have random variables (ammo types, command bonuses, etc) which can have significant effects on the outcome of the game. For instance, with large inventory of tungstun rounds, a Hellcat can be a real monster. If it gets no tungstun, it isn't nearly as effective against the big cats. The same is true of commanders. If your commanders all have four or more bonuses, its as if all your Regular troops just became Veterans. I have tried this and it works on a single computer. Maybe Tanaka is right and it doesn't work when there are two computers involved. A solution to this problem is to always start your games in TCP/IP mode. Play through the first turn and save the game. Then reload it and switch to PBEM mode. There is no opportunity for one player to optimize the map or the units since there is no intermediate file saved until after unit and map generation have occurred. A question: is it possible to change your password in the middle of a game? If you suspect your opponent is cheating by guessing or hacking your password, it would be nice to change it. ------------------ "You can't reason a man out of an opinion he did't reason himself into in the first place." - Mark Twain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 Nabla your explanation of cheating was so confusing to a newbie like me that I don't even think I'll be able to start a multiplayer game again nevermind cheat =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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