Death to abstractions

[mg42 gunner]

CMBO is a great game but im am growing tired of the common theme of abstarctions in the game . For example i posted a thread about mg effictivness in open ground one of the replies is was that the infantary are using " squad level tactics". I understand that some abstarctions are needed. But some arent please post if you agree. :mad:

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mg42 gunner:

CMBO is a great game but im am growing tired of the common theme of abstarctions in the game . For example i posted a thread about mg effictivness in open ground one of the replies is was that the infantary are using " squad level tactics". I understand that some abstarctions are needed. But some arent please post if you agree. :mad:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree. Abstraction is a normal and basic part of any video game. After all, your computer cannot spit shells at you or randomly kill you or make your food taste like **** and you smell like a latrine, all of which are realities not present in the game.

The goal is to make the fewest abstrations possible with the most realistic and historically correct treatment of the issue within the spectrum of the game.

So basically, you are wrong, abstractions are needed to both increase playability (by limiting scope) and decrease player work load (making the game fun to play). Also there is an issue of mapping many of the events of the battlefield to screen images, the more you abstract, the more computers the game will run on.

[Michael Dorosh]

Slapdragon, you ignorant slut, he was clearly talking about "abstarcations". I believe this is the practice of going onto a BBS and beating dead horses.

I suggest we post for 10 pages on this exciting subject, and invite some Australians in to make personal attacks on us just for kicks.

You round up the usual suspects, I'll grab the cold ones. New TV season, my ass...

[dalem]

mg42gunner-

What specific things about the game do you think should be less abstracted?

-dale

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Slapdragon, you ignorant slut, he was clearly talking about "abstarcations". I believe this is the practice of going onto a BBS and beating dead horses.

I suggest we post for 10 pages on this exciting subject, and invite some Australians in to make personal attacks on us just for kicks.

You round up the usual suspects, I'll grab the cold ones. New TV season, my ass...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mike you are a complete imbecile and a Commonwealth Git to boot. If you were any dumber, I would think you were in the Canadian Army. I like your idea, but I think it would just be a rerun of the last 29 threads we had here were you invited those particular house guests. Get a life jerk.

[Michael Emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Slapdragon, you ignorant slut, he was clearly talking about "abstarcations". I believe this is the practice of going onto a BBS and beating dead horses.

I suggest we post for 10 pages on this exciting subject, and invite some Australians in to make personal attacks on us just for kicks.

You round up the usual suspects, I'll grab the cold ones. New TV season, my ass...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LROL!!! Brilliant! We needed that.

BTW, just to be slightly on-topic, I think Richard Berg once wrote that those who insist on absolute realism should play with the firm understanding that the loser will be shot. Very appropriate for the upcoming CM2.

:eek:

Michael

[ 10-02-2001: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]

[Brian Rock]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I suggest we post for 10 pages on this exciting subject, and invite some Australians in to make personal attacks on us just for kicks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK.

Dorosh, you beaver-sniffing maple syrup eating dropkick. I had a dream I was in Calgary the other night and immediately woke up and shot myself. Fortunately I dreamt I was a Canadian paratrooper and missed.

Nothing you say matters, ever, simply because of who you are, and that's as personal as I can be bothered to get. Execpt for the beaver-sniffing stuff in the first para.

With love from Sydney...

On a more serious note:

mg42, Slappy's right the whole idea of a game is an abstraction, it's just a question of what level the abstractions should be a

I think dalem's question is a good one. Which abstractions annoy you the most, and how would you prefer for the engine to handle things?

Eg do you want squads represented by individual soldiers? Do they need to be invidually mapped to the nearest meter? Do we need to represent postures on a soldier by soldier basis? Would you ideally go so far as to define them by bodyparts, tracking the effects of light wounds vs serious ones?

Even the last one, although far more detailed than I imagine you are asking for, is still an abstraction.

Not a flame - just trying to get some clarification and what the problem is for you and the reasons why.

[Michael Dorosh]

Hey, did I ever claim to not be a git?

I will add a serious reply as well. My Squad Leader buddies always complained about the level of abstraction - and my pat answers about it "all being factored in" did not sit well with them. I suppose they went on to be members of what we now call the "twitch crowd."

Different people like different types of games; that's really all there is to it. Doesn't make them any more or any less than anyone else. Now, personally, I LIKE the degree of abstraction in CM, and I would HATE a truly realistic wargame - think the Holodeck on Star Trek.

I was on exercise over the weekend as a member of an infantry company headquarters.

You know what? I saw nothing, knew nothing of what was going on, was cold, tired and hungry and had no clue where I was.

I loved it, of course, but it was totally different from playing CM...

My weekend in the field

[ 10-02-2001: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[StellarRat]

Any game is by nature an abstraction. If you don't like that you should join the Army and ask for combat duty. You'll probably wish you were home playing games instead.

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Hey, did I ever claim to not be a git?

My weekend in the field

[ 10-02-2001: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now that I have seen your picture, it is good that you did not. By the way, you look like a typical Commonwealth soldier, round in the middle and kinda puffy looking, with a dull look on his face. Who needs the fools from Australia like tub-oh-lard Brian Rock when we have a muffin muncher like you around.

[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: Slapdragon ]

[Spook]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brian Rock:

OK.

Dorosh, you beaver-sniffing maple syrup eating dropkick. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Siigggghhhhhh..............

Dammit, Brian, it's "hosers." That's how to address the Canucks. Hosers who will "hose" (shag, f&$#, etc.) moose because sheep are harder to find in Canada. (Although beavers will also do in a pinch.)

Where do you think the name "Moosehead" beer came from?

Look at the latest-issued US quarter, and you'll see where maple syrup suck-leeches gather in. Vermont state. That's the region that's made up of mangy, pondscum suckdogs that soak their privates in maple syrup every morning.

Oh wait....isn't BTS located in Vermont?

(If banned by tomorrow, please, all of you, save your "good riddance" send-offs.)

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spook:

Siigggghhhhhh..............

Dammit, Brian, it's "hosers." That's how to address the Canucks. Hosers who will "hose" (shag, f&$#, etc.) moose because sheep are harder to find in Canada. (Although beavers will also do in a pinch.)

Where do you think the name "Moosehead" beer came from?

Look at the latest-issued US quarter, and you'll see where maple syrup suck-leeches gather in. Vermont state. That's the region that's made up of mangy, pondscum suckdogs that soak their privates in maple syrup every morning.

Oh wait....isn't BTS located in Vermont?

(If banned by tomorrow, please, all of you, save your "good riddance" send-offs.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spook you complete and soon to be banned lump of dog turd. You do not have a clue. The land of maple is not where the great treehugging duo come from, but from Maine, the land of stale fish and fat women. You really need to learn to read, or at least read a map.

This discussion is ever so much more fun without the flame baters in it. Who needs them! Besides, if we need more stupid comments, we always can invite Germanboy in.

[Michael Dorosh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon:

This discussion is ever so much more fun without the flame baters in it. Who needs them! Besides, if we need more stupid comments, we always can invite Germanboy in.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, but once the sun is over the yardarm in Helsinki, the UnterFinns will show up and ruin things - AGAIN.

[Spook]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon:

Spook you complete and soon to be banned lump of dog turd. You do not have a clue. The land of maple is not where the great treehugging duo come from, but from Maine, the land of stale fish and fat women. You really need to learn to read, or at least read a map.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fine. Send me a Maine state map that flashes in neon letters, "maple trees here!!"

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

This discussion is ever so much more fun without the flame baters in it. Who needs them! Besides, if we need more stupid comments, we always can invite Germanboy in.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Except that you spelled "bait" wrong, pinwit. Or is that a newly coined term? "flame-bate" as might be regarded near-equivalent to "masturbate"?

Time update the web dictionary again......

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spook:

Except that you spelled "bait" wrong, pinwit. Or is that a newly coined term? "flame-bate" as might be regarded near-equivalent to "masturbate"?

Time update the web dictionary again......<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jeeze, you catch on real quick. No wonder the Aussies all think you are a dolt. Where are you from anyway, Texas?

[Fieldmarshall]

If you have a comp that can support such a game show it to me

[Spook]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon:

Jeeze, you catch on real quick. No wonder the Aussies all think you are a dolt. Where are you from anyway, Texas?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So I'm a dolt, and you're the AntiChrist, in their eyes. Whatever.

Answer to your question is Ohio. Land of the "Buckeyes" (rhymes with....), Madmatt, and perpertually-choking football teams. :mad:

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spook:

So I'm a dolt, and you're the AntiChrist, in their eyes. Whatever.

Answer to your question is Ohio. Land of the "Buckeyes" (rhymes with....), Madmatt, and perpertually-choking football teams. :mad:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, I am the anti christ to the disabled thinking gang, but they have a worse dilemma than that. Read the last flame bait thread, and see that the guy who posted a "I hate australlia and everyone is against me even though I am not paranoid" thread thinks I am a nationalist because I defended Australia, while the turgid thinking Aussie crowd thinks I am bad because I am against the poor picked upon upsidedowners. Now here is the horns of the problem. Do they love that guy who hates me because he hates me, or hate him because he is a bigot against Australia?

However, I am willing to argue Spook that your doltness is far greater than my sataness in the long run, because when the Aussie are not involved, I am not satan, but you are still a dolt. From Ohio no less.

[Spook]

Anyway, mg42gunner, given how long we've hijacked your topic thread, I'll now be a sport and give you some "grog" advice concerning wargame detail.

Seeking detail just for detail's sake can eventually kill a game. Do you wish to track POL expenditures along with ammo usage for each battle? Or determine where each wounded soldier has been specifically wounded?

Details can always be added, but should only be done if it adds both to historical realism and to overall gameplay. And some level of abstraction will always be on hand.

There are three guiding rules to a successful wargame design:

1) Keep it focused, in terms of concept and game scales. Trying to cover all kinds of scales (like simulating everything from a division CO to a squad CO) and every imaginable WWII tactical situation will come at a loss in coherence. Don't try to make the game be all things to all people.

2) Keep it accessible, in terms of media & interface. When a wargamer feels that he has to "work" to play a game, even if it's a seemingly realistic wargame, then he'll still likely soon lose interest and try other game themes.

3) And the core requirement: keep it consistent. Balance the abstractions and the details so that a consistent game model is preserved. For example, if CM gave ultra-realistic treatment of its armored vehicles, but only cartoon-level detail for its infantry & support elements, I'd have dropped it long ago.

[Brian Rock]

Wow, an intelligent response. I was sure we were on the long slippery road to Peng-ism.

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brian Rock:

Wow, an intelligent response. I was sure we were on the long slippery road to Peng-ism.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you notice.... well I will call you Aussie since that is almost the worst thing I can call you... I posted an intelligent response right away that said the same thing but was *sniff* ignored.

[Spook]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon:

Yep, I am the anti christ to the disabled thinking gang, but they have a worse dilemma than that. Read the last flame bait thread, and see that the guy who posted a "I hate australlia and everyone is against me even though I am not paranoid" thread thinks I am a nationalist because I defended Australia, while the turgid thinking Aussie crowd thinks I am bad because I am against the poor picked upon upsidedowners. Now here is the horns of the problem. Do they love that guy who hates me because he hates me, or hate him because he is a bigot against Australia? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hard to say. It depends on the demonstrated sense of perspective that is possessed by the noted "Slap-baiters" (which, I will acknowledge, seems very limited).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

However, I am willing to argue Spook that your doltness is far greater than my sataness in the long run, because when the Aussie are not involved, I am not satan, but you are still a dolt. From Ohio no less.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Be honest, now. To the Slap-baiters, you're the AntiChrist. To all the rest of us here, you're a dolt just like me. At least I'm consistent. BTW, Even North Carolina saw fit to use a couple of Ohio boys on its own state quarter.

[Spook]

Damn, Brian's right. I have indeed slipped into a Peng-thread clone. Now I'll never be able to live this down, never be able to wash away the stain of cess......

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spook:

Be honest, now. To the Slap-baiters, you're the AntiChrist. To all the rest of us here, you're a dolt just like me. At least I'm consistent. BTW, Even North Carolina saw fit to use a couple of Ohio boys on its own state quarter.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even worse. Mr. "Banned Beazley" in his "Mulga Hill" version is trying to stir up a flame war on the dead fascine thread. OK, so you and I are dolts, but what do you call a guy who has at least 4 accounst and wont stay banned, except of course "Gunny Bunny".

Still, he is monkey house funny, so to speak.

Anyway, I wish there was a Peng thread for non Pengers that we could have these intellectual discussion in. And Spook, you bring so much to the table.

[Spook]

Thanks, Slap. I try to hang on to what I can, as a middle-aged burnout.

I'd better quit for tonight, but yes, I see that "Mulga" is at it again. Just when I thought the fascine thread had finally played out.