Why Don't Targeting Orders Have Command Delays?

[Hamsters]

It doesn't make any sense. Movement orders suffer from 3-20+ second command delays, why don't the targeting orders? Wouldn't this solve a lot of the absolute spotting problems by accurately portraying the commander making an order for a tank or other unit to target a unit that they cannot see?

[109 Gustav]

"Franz, shoot those Tommies over there."

"Sorry, Hans. You have to be more specific than that."

"The ones shooting back at us."

"Hans, you mean the ones with the mortar?"

"Yes. They're only 100m from us, so you'd better hurry. That last round was awful close, and I'd really appreciate it if you'd shoot them."

"Ok, orders are orders, and if you want me to shoot them, I'll go ahead and -BOOM!- ...Hans?..."

•••Or•••

"Franz, shoot those Tommies in the trees."

"Ok."

•••You decide which one is more realistic.

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[Hamsters]

That's not realistic, as you aren't standing next to Hans. You're telling your radioman to get Hans's platoon HQ on the line (Or Hans's tank) and telling him there's a damned zook right next to him in the trees, no to his left, and he's got to whack it. You're telling me that should be instantaneous while telling Hans to move forward 10m shouldn't be?

If Hans sees those guys on his own, no problem, just the same as if Hans had decided to shoot at one guy and not another, you still have to get your radioman to tell his Platoon HQ or whatever to switch targets, which is tough considering he's 50m away from his Platoon HQ and there's an arty barrage going on.

[Michael Dorosh]

Infantry sections/squads could and did give their own fire orders in action.

As for movement, on the other hand, this was usually co-ordinated through the platoon commander. Hence the delay.

[Hamsters]

I seriously doubt squads and sections switched fire to targets that they thought weren't important or targets that they didn't know anything about.

Imagine your squad is taking fire from a squad up the hill in the trees and they start firing back. But you (The overall commander) know that that squad isn't going to cause you nearly as much trouble as the one farther back with a commanding view of an open expanse that you're moving troops through. How can you justify that your section or squad leader would switch targets to this other squad? Psychic? Empathy?

And there's no way to explain that a tank that just happened to be ambushed right at the end of a turn would know to immediately button or unbutton and attack a zook that it doesn't see. This, however, happens all the time and is completely unrealistic. It would take some time to get those boys on the phone and tell them what a dire situation they're in, wouldn't it?

[This message has been edited by Hamsters (edited 03-18-2001).]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Hamsters:

I seriously doubt squads and sections switched fire to targets that they thought weren't important or targets that they didn't know anything about.

Imagine your squad is taking fire from a squad up the hill in the trees and they start firing back. But you (The overall commander) know that that squad isn't going to cause you nearly as much trouble as the one farther back with a commanding view of an open expanse that you're moving troops through. How can you justify that your section or squad leader would switch targets to this other squad? Psychic? Empathy?

And there's no way to explain that a tank that just happened to be ambushed right at the end of a turn would know to immediately button or unbutton and attack a zook that it doesn't see. This, however, happens all the time and is completely unrealistic. It would take some time to get those boys on the phone and tell them what a dire situation they're in, wouldn't it?

[This message has been edited by Hamsters (edited 03-18-2001).]

I have no idea what you're going on about. I thought we were discussing why there is a time delay for movement orders but not for fire orders. Why on earth are you changing the subject midstream to talk about appropriate targets?

Having actually served in an infantry section, I can tell you that the section leaders do indeed give fire orders. I don't think I can help you with your other problems.

[Hamsters]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I have no idea what you're going on about. I thought we were discussing why there is a time delay for movement orders but not for fire orders. Why on earth are you changing the subject midstream to talk about appropriate targets?

Having actually served in an infantry section, I can tell you that the section leaders do indeed give fire orders. I don't think I can help you with your other problems.

How can you have no idea what I'm going on about? These are legitimate targets, why wouldn't they be? It just takes time for orders to be given and carried out. I thought I stated that quite simply, didn't I?

Just to be clear, I don't think it's unrealistic for a commander to order a tank to attack a unit that the tank doesn't initially spot. The same goes for other units as well as changing a unit's target to one that better suits the overall strategy. I do, however, think that these orders should be delayed by C&C just like movement orders. Units can still change targets as the TacAI deems necessary (Which I feel covers all situations where a section or squad leader would order a change in targets, et cetera) but a specific order from 'Up top' takes a while to get to the grunt, be it an order to move or shoot.

[This message has been edited by Hamsters (edited 03-18-2001).]

[Guest Michael emrys]

Well, it seems to me that there is a delay before carrying out my targeting orders, especially one which requires a change of facing. It's just that it doesn't show up in the interface.

But don't take my word for it. Next time you are in a battle, try timing your squads and compare the ones who are continuing to fire at an already acquired target to those who have just been given a new fire order by you. See which ones start shooting soonest. Be sure they have equivalent leadership bonuses.

Michael

[Hamsters]

I ran the following test:

6 Buttoned Conscript Hummels (Buttoned to reduce spotting Conscript for the longest command delay, Hummels because they only have a main gun)

6 Elite Sharpshooters with no ammo (Elite so that they have the best spotting ability)

6 Regular Bazooka teams with no ammo, hidden (Bazooka because they should be priority targets for AFVs)

On the field there are six patches of woods, each has a sharpshooter and a bazooka team with a Hummel next to it. Thus, at the beginning of the battle, the Axis player can see all the bazookas but the Hummels themselves cannot. Running a round through with no actions causes the hummels to do nothing.

Unhiding each Hummel's respective bazooka teams and running them, thus making them more visable, causes the following results:

3 Bazooka teams destroyed, three untouched as some of the Hummels catch sight or sound of the bazooka teams but some have no idea.

Ordering the Hummels to area attack next to the Bazooka teams causes the following results:

Every Hummel immediately begins rotating to attack, even though their individual C&C delays for movement are 33 seconds.