OT Japenese Tanks

[ntg84]

Did a Jap tank ever knock out another tank in tank to tank warfare?

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

Probably. The Japanese fought a border war with the Russians in the late 30s, along the Manchurian border. The Russians trounced them. Tanks were certainly used, and the Russians used many light tanks at the time (as well as some reasonably armored T-26s if memory serves). I'd be surprised if a few BT-7s or whatever they were, weren't knocked out by the Japanese in the course of that fighting, some of them by their own tanks.

Another possibility is that some Stuarts might have been knocked out by them. The army and marines both used some Stuarts, anmd particularly liked the canister rounds made for the 37 MA, and the protected MG nest effect. But I do not know of any documented case of one of those being knocked out by Japanese armor. The small guns on the Japanese tanks should have been up to it (unlike Shermans), but I just do not know if they every clashed enough for it to happen.

[MikeT]

I have been doing some research on the Pacific theater the last few days. I came across this site: http://member.nifty.ne.jp/takixxx/

Dedicated to Imperial armor forces.

MikeT

[Subvet]

The link that MikeT put up leads to a pretty interesting site. You don't see much written about the Japanese tanks of WW2. Japanese tanks did knock out some enemy tanks during the war, but they were always at a disadvantage in both armor and main gun effectiveness.

An interesting battle is talked about at that website: "In April, 1945, the American forces had been approaching to the 14th Army HQ in Baguio. The only tank force that General Yama****a had was the 5th Company of 10th Tank Regiment. The company had 3 Medium tanks and 2 Light Tanks. As the Japanese tank could not cope with the American tank, General Yama****a ordered the company to carry out a suicide-attack by tanks.

One Type 97 Medium Tank and one Type 95 Light tank were attached with two explosives in front of the hull. They hid into a bamboo bush near the road between Baguio and Sablan on which the Amercian tanks would advance. When a column of Sherman tanks turned the corner about 100m far from them, they dashed forwards the column. The leading tank of the column was surprised at them and tried to go back, but it failed to turn and fell into a valley along the road.

Japanese tanks clashed with enemy tanks and four tanks(two Shermans and two Japanese tanks) burned up. The Japanese crews who survived jumped off a tank and run into the enemy position, brandishing a Japanese sword. After this incident, the Americans would not advance for a week."

It also talks about knocking out a couple of British medium tanks in Burma. In other places it talks about armor vs. armor clashes but doesn't specifically say that Japanese tanks knocked out the enemy tanks.

[Hans]

Hmmmm

http://member.nifty.ne.jp/takixxx/Ha-To.htm

[The Commissar]

Can anyone provide me with any information about the forementioned late 30's war between the Russians and Japanese jason mentioned?

After the surprisingly inferior performance the Russians showed against the Japanese in the "Russo-Japanese" war of the early 1900's, Im interested in any battles where the Russians got their "revenge"

Thanks in advance!

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[Mark IV]

Nomonhan (Japanese)/Khalkhin Gol (Russian), 1939

Undeclared war with Japan testing the Soviet resolve to retain Manchurian/Mongolian border areas. The Japanese had "expanded" the border with various raids and skirmishes in which they had generally been successful.

In July, 1939, Soviet forces under Marshal Zhukhov, including about 70,000 men, 1000 tanks, and hundreds of aircraft, launched a surprise offensive against a Japanese Army of about 40,000 men, with little artillery, few aircraft, and only a few dozen of their hopeless tanks. The battle lasted for about 2 months, in extreme heat and appalling conditions, until Zhukhov could concentrate his armor in a huge encirclement.

The Japanese forces suffered 79% casualties. Only about 5000 escaped, and only 3000 were taken prisoner. An armistice was arranged, and the Japanese decided that expansion would best be pursued in the south.

Japanese troops did not fight Russians again until the Soviet invasion of Manchuria, a few hours before the bomb was dropped on Nagasaki.

[The Commissar]

Thanks for the superb info, Mark IV!

Very interesting, especially considering this is an engagement I've never heard about.

Thanks again!

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[MikeT]

The Japanese got their bottoms spanked both times they crossed Soviet army. Nowever the story that is seldomed mentioned is the captured Japanese soldiers were not retured to Japan after the war. They suffered the same fate as German captives (or for that matter Italian, Rumanian, Finnish) that fought against the regime. They were kept as "logs" in POW camps until they died. Perhaps those KIA were more fortunate.

MikeT

[tss]

MikeT wrote:

They suffered the same fate as German captives (or for that matter Italian, Rumanian, Finnish) that fought against the regime. They were kept as "logs" in POW camps until they died.

I don't know about Japanese, Rumanian, and Italian POWs, but of Germans and Finns majority returned alive. They were generally in bad condition, that is true, and one estimate that I've seen says that their expected lifetime went down ~10-15 years because of the hardships.

The death rate in Soviet captivity seems to be roughly 30%.

Also, Finns were not held for years (though there were few isolated exceptions). I don't have my books at hand right now, but the first POWs returned as early as November 1944, two months after armistice. I think that the last POW transtport was in April or May 1944, but I'm not certain of that.

The reason why Finns were returned much quicker than the other nationalities was that Finland never surrendered. The war ended in an armistice, and one of the conditions was that POW exchange would be speedily arranged.

- Tommi

[MikeT]

Tommi?, "majority returned alive"?? Sir I seriously have to disagree with this statement. Have you read the book "Enemy at the Gates"? If no get it and check out the section on what happened to the Italian and German captives in the tender hands of the Russians. It made the comment that of 100,000 prisones only 5,000 ever saw Germany again. No offence here but I cannot agree with you comment.

MikeT

[Wesy]

I could probably add some value on this topic...My uncle was actually stationed in Manchuria from 1943 till the end of the war. He was captured by the Soviets and spent 3 years in a labor camp near Lake Baikal. He survived and returned to Japan in 1948. He then emmigrated to the USA, only to be drafted in the USAF just in time for the Korean War.

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"Lack of weapons is no excuse for defeat"

- Lt. General Renya Mutaguchi, Commanding General, Japanese Fifteenth Army, 1944-1945

[Mark IV]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Commissar:

Very interesting, especially considering this is an engagement I've never heard about.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The remarkable thing is that the Soviets, under Zhukhov, were probably the first to use massed, concentrated armor in warfare, 2 years before the invasion of Poland.

They had been defeated a year earlier in running battles around Lake Khasan, and were in trouble again at Khalkhin Gol when Zhukhov took command. He was already in characteristic style, slowly massing forces to obtain overwhelming local superiority, then staging a massive offensive without regard for the lives of his own troops. It was after this battle that he described (to an American general) how he insisted that his infantry advance through minefields "as though they weren't even there."

As for avenging the R-J War, I don't think they came close. If it wasn't for the Japanese, Manchuria and Korea would have been Russian territory before WWI, and Russian would have had a warm water port on the Pacific. The losses at Khalkhin Gol would have been insignificant in the battles of the R-J War, and their Navy didn't recover until after WWII.

[Wesy]

And a reason why the Japanese avoided confronting the Soviets during the war. The Nomonhon incident, gave Japan a bloody nose, and helped maintain their "non aggression pact" with the USSR through the end of the war. It wasn't the A-Bomb that caused Japan to surrender. It was the firebombings, economic strangulation AND the Soviet invasion into Manchuria. For Japan, the strategic objective was always China. Without China,there was no purpose to continue the war.

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"Lack of weapons is no excuse for defeat"

- Lt. General Renya Mutaguchi, Commanding General, Japanese Fifteenth Army, 1944-1945

[The Commissar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MikeT:

If no get it and check out the section on what happened to the Italian and German captives in the tender hands of the Russians

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Keep in mind that unlike with the other countries in WW2, Russia was invaded and its people horribly massacred by SS divisions. In Belarus alone, over 600 villages were completely wiped out, with all civilians butchered like cattle.

Assuming you are a citizen of a Western country, the German army never did this to any of your distant relatives, except maybe those who served in the war and were killed fighting them. The conflict for the U.S. was one across the ocean, and their loved ones were safe behind a big ol' pond. Not so for the Russians. The war was much more personal and brutal for them, thus resulting in a deep hatred developing between the oposing sides.

The Russians were brutal to their prisoners, no question about it, but if that prisoner was responsible for stuffing your family along with the rest of the people from your small town into a large builing and burning them alive inside, would you really treat the bastard right? Didn't think so.

For a visual look at what those future prisoners did, watch the Russian movie "Come and See".

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[This message has been edited by The Commissar (edited 01-15-2001).]

[tss]

MikeT wrote:

Tommi?, "majority returned alive"?? Sir I seriously have to disagree with this statement.

You may disagree if you want. The Soviets took ~2.5 million German POWs and ~2 million returned alive. I don't have the actual figures at hand by now, but the ratio was about that.

It made the comment that of 100,000 prisones only 5,000 ever saw Germany

again.

Those 100000 men taken at Stalingrad formed ~4% of the total number of German POWs, but they suffered ~20% of total German POW deaths. They were in exceptionally poor condition when surrendering and the Soviets were not prepared to having such a large number of POWs at one time, so their living conditions were abysmal that winter.

However, that doesn't change the fact that most of German POWs returned alive.

No offence here but I cannot agree with you comment.

No problem.

- Tommi