Certain units too easily spotted

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Roborat:

One other point is that foos dont usually stand up and look around the battlefield. They hide, in the bushes, or in a hole, with cam or other cover on top and in front, so to see them more than about 100m away, or even 50 m, when they are not moving, would take the eyes of an eagle. And the radio is usually hidden further back, with a long handset. The same goes for the hiding and shooting thing. There is no reason for the change in accuracy when firing. The foos pick their position so they can see their target from concealment, without having to move. So in game terms, they should be firing while hidden, no change in accuracy.

But this comment, and Annalist's, presuppose that the FOO has one magic spot on the battlefield from which he can see all, and never has to move. This was not always the case, especially on the attack. You can set up on a hill, but once the infantry goes forward into the valley or town, the FOO doesn't know what to shoot at! He has to go forward with the company, and as the platoon commanders check in with the Company commander, he can get an idea of where to drop his shells. He's pretty useless on top of a hill. Blackburn, in the book "The Guns of Normandy" talks of FOOs riding in Universal Carriers much of the time, usually as part of the headquarters of an infantry company.

[Roborat]

True, they did travel with the troops, but they weren't right up on the front lines, they wouldn't have a good enough field of view, and the first thing they would do would be to find some cover where they could see the objective. After all, they know they are priority targets and would take appropriate precautions. And when travelling with the HQ group, who's to tell which pointy head hiding in a carrier in the back among all the other command vehicles is the foo, and who is the supply clerk?? After all, the HQ group wasn't right at the action either, they would be a little way back.

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"With cat-like tread, Upon our prey we steal;

In silence dread, Our cautious way we feel." -G&S

[Annalist]

Mike, both you and Robo make good, accurate, valid points. The one I'm discussing, though, it Roborat's. I'm talking about FO's in a pre-selected position. Say on a hill overlooking a valley. This is prior to the time that they need to move forward with the attacking forces. Right now, they're calling fires behind the enemy front lines or on concentrations on the front line. I absolutely agree, to keep from dropping steel on friendlies they'd have to move forward and be visible. However, in hiding positions, they should be invisible unless you trip on them. Robo's right, in that, the radio is usually a good distance away because the Germans would use radio direction finding equipment to direct troops/indirect fires on command posts, spotters, etc.

BTW, Robo, when I was an infantryman, we frequently had FO's right up on the line with us and attached at the platoon level...even if he was only for the company's 4.2" mortars. The bigger gun FO's usually did stay with the HQ to which they were attached. And, BTW, my unit still had its WWI MTO&E except the weapon types were upgraded to modern equivalents.

[This message has been edited by Annalist (edited 01-26-2001).]

[Roborat]

Annalist, you are right about the foos, I had forgotten about that type of support. My experience is from the 105 & 155 area, where the foos are attached at a higher level, and travel with the hq group. And when they are on their own, directing battery fire, they deploy as I said, as well hidden as possible. Good point about the radio. Although, from what I have been told, it is more to hide the antenna from the enemy, more than worry about df assets, especially as the radio was often installed in a jeep, your in bad shape when your wheels get toasted.

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"With cat-like tread, Upon our prey we steal;

In silence dread, Our cautious way we feel." -G&S

[Guest Michael emrys]

The only time I ever had a FO get spotted and shot at was one occasion where I had moved him out into open ground so that he could see the target and a LeIG started taking potshots at him.

Michael

[Annalist]

I created a scenario to check this. It was german armor v. nothing but allied spotters. After the rounds started falling, everyone buttoned up, of course. Guess what, after about 3 rounds, the buttoned tanks started engaging some of the spotters, still in their foxholes from about 600m. No friggin way!

[chrisl]

I just did the same thing and got very different results (using 1.1). A dozen german tanks (AI) against 8 allied spotters (me), billiard table flat (800x800m), sparse trees, rural (a fair number of structures). LOS was pretty clear all across the map--all my spotters had pretty good views.

The first time I ran it, I dropped the arty on the tanks. They all buttoned, and then continued coming. Only one was brewed. None of the spotters drew any fire until a tank had come within 20 m (which means they almost all fired all their rounds).

I repeated, this time avoiding fire on the tanks. The AI still managed to get a Panther under the 81 fire, but that was the only one that buttoned. Again nobody drew any fire until the tanks were within 20 m or so.

Do you put your FOs at the front edge of the woods? The foxholes might be visible (you should be able to tell because then you'd see an area fire target line rather than direct on the unit).

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"If you can taste the difference between caviar on a cracker and ketchup on a Kit-Kat while blindfolded, you have not had enough aquavit to be ready for lutefisk." (stolen from some web page about lutefisk)