Questions about OOB

[lcm1947]

I am back playing some Pbem's again after over a 2 year period of only playing against the computer

and am interested in playing more realistic games now or at least think I am. Can anybody direct me to a site or have any info on this subject? I guess what I'm thinking is that it might be more fun or at least interesting to play some games that truely are realistic as far as the OOB goes. I wonder though if this is the way to go with CMBO since it would be difficult to do since players have a certain amount to spend on their setup and what if they have extra left to spend which I'm sure they would after picking a realistic OOB. Anyway at present just pondering it and hoped somebody could chime in on the subject.

[Dandelion]

Hi again Lee,

Do you mean OOBs as in standard OOB for this-and-that kind of unit (e.g. a standard German pnzer company), or OOB as in the specific units participating at a certain place and time (e.g. which units participated in the Market-Garden operation)?

Regards

Dandelion

[Smack]

ya that works...

[Dandelion]

On the issue of historically oriented QB, I think there are quite a few gamers out there interested in such and willing to submit to historical limitations on OOB. Though I guess it would be important to be very clear and specific beforehand.

Regards

Dandelion

[Maj. Battaglia]

JasonC had a thread "How to fight like a German" and "How to fight like an American" that listed not only tactics, but realistic OOBs for various point totals. If you search, they are worth the read.

One thing I would add is that, from my own research, it is more realistic to not give many (or any) M2 .50 cal HMGs to the US, especially if attacking (and even more so if doing a company size action). From my research, the US infantry battalion heavy weapons company was armed mostly with the M1917 HMG. The M2 was, from what I can tell, not an organic part of the infantry company (they had the two M1919s).

They were available, but would have to have been taken from the support elements, and that would require proactive leadership, not always the order of the day. I can provide more info on this if you wish.

To me this is an important issue due to the power of the 50 cal against German HTs and ACs.

[lcm1947]

Sorry for the time delay but I have relatives in and had to cater to them of course and still am but got a few minutes to spare until they start looking for me. Anyway Dandelion and Hi back to you, I am referring to the standard troops, etc in a company. Like what units would you expect a company would be made up of. Example; two Sherman's, a half track, two Grayhounds and what type of special weapons would realistically be in a company. I am trying to avoid just using what I enjoy or am good at using like my usual company of men and 13 Jumbo tanks. Thanks Maj. Battaglia for that info and yes I would be very interested in getting more info on that. I also will try to scearch for JasonC's post on the subject as that sounds like what I am looking for and JasonC is always full of good interesting information. Can you pin it down a little better by chance on what date period or heading of JasonC's post would be? If not I will try to locate it anyway.

[JonS]

JasonC's "How to Attack Like The Germans." On page two is a post I put together on "How to Attack Like the British."

Jason did a seperate thread on "... Like the Americans" too.

Regards

JonS

[lcm1947]

Alright JonS that's exactly what I was looking for. You da man! Great going but how in the world could you remember or find that? Please tell I would love to know how you did that.

[JonS]

I did a search using my member number and "How to attack like the british". Easy

[Maj. Battaglia]

Icm,

Here is a link to a thread, now in the archives, that I started almost two years ago:

Most common US HMG

We can't add to this now, but if you have comments, feel free to start a new thread here. I'll add anything new I have if I have time (got more work this week than usual). Otherwise, I think it is something worth considering when outfitting your US forces.

[Dandelion]

Lee,

I will, as usual, elucidate some on the Germans.

The smallest unit thought capable of operational scale action was the Regiment. In any scenario featuring Germans, it would be reasonable to be able to draw from regimental units to compose your force.

Panzer Grenadier

(Companies)

1.-3. Infantry (ready-made in CM unit list)

4. Support (ready-made in CM unit list)

5.-7. Infantry

8. Support

9.-11. Infantry

12. Support

13. sIG (Infantry gun, 6x75mm 2x150mm)

14 FlaK (AA 12x20mm)

15 Aufkl (Recon, as infantry coy, usually mounted in Schwimmwagen)

16. Pi (Engineer - ready-made in CM unit list)

The infantry (Grenadier) Regiment was smaller, with only 10 companies. Companies 9 and 10 would be s.I.G. and Pi respecticely.

Companies 1-4, 5-8 and 9-12 formed I,II and III Btl respectively. The other companies were regimental and distrubuted as needed. Of course, many divisions were so weak they did not have the III Btl, meaning comapnies 9-12 were instead Rgt companies. Also, the Recon coy was luxury present in very few Rgts.

Both trucks and halftracks were left one or several kilometres to the rear and never used in combat by the PzGren, so you can always leave such out in a scenario. The same would go for support, so you can fairly exchange all barrels for FOs too without being gamey.

Panzer

(Companies)

1.-8. Panzer (nominally 4x5 tanks plus 2, in reality at best 4x4 +2, often 4x3 +1)

There were also two unnumbered Werkstatt (Workshop) companies (in reality often platoons)

Companies 1.-4. would form I Btl, and should ideally contain Panzer V (Panther). In fact, on the western front, most of them did too. Companies 5.-8. formed II Btl and would consist of PzKpfw IV.

But as we know, tanks could be substituted for assault guns and so forth.

In addition, there would be divisional units to draw from. I guess this would be the subject of player agreement. anyway, these were:

Panzerjäger

Battalion:

Companies

1.-3. Panzerjäger (should be 10 (2x4 +2) JgdPz or PzJg, could be just about anything, including towed PaKs or, late in the war, men on bicycles carrying panzerfausts).

Aufklärung (recon)

Battalion:

Companies

1.-4. Aufklärung (as infantry)(in Armoured divisions, 1.-2. companies would be armoured car, 3.-4. would be halftrack infantry)

5. Support (support halftracks and armoured cars)

(The recon units made heavy use of their thin skinned vehicles, even in combat. So here you should not omit halftracks and such).

Finally the Pionier battalion, that is ready-made in the CM list.

In terms of artillery support, the total amount available in any division would be 6x4 105mm and 3x4 150mm.

Above division, there would be Korps and Armee units that one might draw upon. There were heavy Panzer (Tiger) and Jagdpanzer (Jagdpanther) units, both quite rare. More common was the Nebelwerfer brigade. Most units attacking enjoyed the support of such. In fact, so did most units defending. Of course, a normal sized CM scenario leaves little room for the proper use of these.

All the Best

Dandelion

[Dandelion]

I'll add some on the structure of German operations also, which might help.

Defence

Defenses were constructed in layers. Is it actually spelled defences? Anyway, there would normally be one main line of defense, called Hauptkampflinie (equiv. to Main Line of Resistance). In front of it there would be one or more lines of defense intended only to wear down and delay the enemy attack, called Wiederstandslinie (Line of resistance). These would be placed some 2-3 kilometres ahead of the main line. If several, they would use that spacing too. One should not imagine these things in terms of actual lines. They were patchworks of resistance areas capable of defense in all directions, vaguely linked to form sort of lines.

All lines had a second line just behind them, the so called Aufnahmelinie. This was some 5-800 meters behind the line it supported and contained prepared positions to fall back upon as well as the positions of the support weapons. Again, the term "line" is not really a very good one.

In front of all lines would be the pickets, Vorgeschobene Stellungen in German. Small outposts of maximum platoon size, intended to ambush, harass and deny an advancing enemy. Ideally, they could trick the enemy into believing he had hit the main position, thus dismounting and directing massive support on them. It often worked in fact.

Between all lines there would be outposts too, Vorposten in German. These were used to seize and maintain dominance over all no-mans land and areas between lines. This was considered essential by the Germans. Such outposts would be manned by patrols of up to platoon and could include passive recon positions too, to monitor terrain.

Combat would be very different depending on the scenario viewpoint.

A scenario depicting action in the forward lines would normally entail the Germans engaging at extreme distances, and retreating off map before the neemy comes too close. Might not sound very fun, but it can be in good scenarios.

Scenarios depicting outpost combat would normally include smaller forces sans support, in brief but violent clashes. As well as ambushes.

Scenarios tend to depict battles in or around the main line (area) of resistance. Where the German had decided to stay until he was literally forced to leave. These can be of any size, really, and including units from all the way to Armee if need be.

(btw, translated into urban warfare, the Germans built their main line in the heart of the built up area, and the other lines as radiating circles - they never manned the outskirts with anything but outposts, as it was too exposed).

The normal defense area allotments would be:

Battalion: 1000-2000 m wide and 1000-1500 meters deep

Company: 300-600 meters wide and 400 to 600 meters deep

If the defense was simply a delaying one, these Abschnitts (sectors) could well be doubled.

Offensive

In the West, Germans used armoured and motorised formations for attack, as the attack value for infantry divisions was considerted too low.

German doctrine of offense is complex and I will not go deep into it here. It will suffice to say that they used the normal system of assembly area-staqrting line-sector of attack. A scenario will look quite different depending on what stage of the attack is covered. But we stick to sector of attack here, as this would be normal.

Germans allotted lanes of attack to all participating units, down to company. These were like virtual corridors in the terrain. Depending on the power of thrust they wished to achieve, such corridors were narrow or wide. The narrower, the more dense the attack force, the more powerful. The narrowest point in any sector was called schwerpunkt.

Typical width of such lanes, ranging from Schwerpunkt to low-intensity probe, were:

Battalion: 400 meters to 2000 meters

Company: 200 meters to 400 meters

Platoon 1-200 meters

Squad 50-100 meters.

Width did not necessarily mean they deployed along the whole line, simply that they had a wide corridor, possibly enabling bypass of enemy strongpoints.

Germans normally advanced in "Keil", meaning one unit in front and two rear. This system was used at all levels, down to platoon. In front of the forwardmost units would be scouts, usually halfsquads advancing some 2-400 meters ahead.

Panzers used their own lanes of attack, that did not necessarily follow infantry units. Could even cross them back and forth. They rarely appeared in smaller numbers than platoon and if they had a choice, not in smaller numbers than company. They also advanced in Keil, except when they had to cross wide open areas, in which case they normally preferred line, to have all barrels pointing forward and ready to fire.

So. This is who you'd usually run into when facing or playing Germans, and how they would normally be deployed. Historically speaking and put simple.

All the best

Dandelion

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

So. This is who you'd usually run into when facing or playing Germans, and how they would normally be deployed. Historically speaking and put simple.

Small rider. I would think that especially the densities you give are more relevant in the west. Not in the east.

[lcm1947]

Thanks Dandelion and Maj. Battaglia for all that useful and extremely interesting information. So I can't use many of the old .50 Cal. HMG in my games then. Darn! :mad: What the heck are you Dandelion some sort of encyclopedist on military tactics and OOB's? Thanks guys.

[Dandelion]

Anytime Lee

Yes Andreas, all of what I wrote was relevant for the West and CMBO. Several points would be different playing the East and CMBB.

Small rider? I don't get it.

Regards

Dandelion