Berm Drills

[AbramsGunner]

As an ex-tank gunner, I have tried to get my tanks to do berm drills when engaging enemy armor. Pulling up into hull down is no problem using the 'HUNT' mode, since my tank will stop when the enemy tank is spotted.

The problem is figuring out how to get my tank back down after fire a shot or two. I can't use the HUNT move and reverse on the same turn because the tank will stop and engage (exposed the whole time) until the enemy is destroyed or moves out of LOS before reversing. If I delay the HUNT movement to 45 seconds or higher then the next turn i can give a REVERSE order and my tank will move back down to a turret down position.

But this makes a tank wait till almost the end of the turn to move up and engage on the next turn (basically engaging every other turn). This method isn't perfect since the delay, even at 45 secs, moves my tank up to hull down position earlier than I would like causing my tank to still be exposed before the tank reverses.

It would be great if a DELAY command could be used between movement orders (MAYBE IN CM2!) and then I could move up, wait XX seconds (giving me time to engage), and then back down, wait XX seconds, then move back up to engage, etc.

Maybe someone knows a better way to get your tanks to do berm drills in CM. Please let me know and maybe drop a line to BTS about an actual DELAY command in CM2, this would help alot with coordinating movement in general also. Thanks.

[Jagdcarcajou]

Hey,

I use Move and then Reverse to accomplish what you are describing. That makes getting into a hull-down position a little more touch and go, but it does the trick if movement is what you are after. I often give multiple commands (move, reverse, displace, move, reverse, etc...). If the tank can take some punishment I will use Hunt instead to allow the tank to stay until it gets its kill or the enemy finds cover.

Hope that helps.

Chris

------------------

What the hell is a Jagdcarcajou?

CM Recon

[Forever Babra]

I always use a "fast move" and "reverse" combo. Unfortunately, the more experienced the crew, the less time they spend in the firing position. A Reg will hang tight for about 13 seconds though, which is just about right for my needs.

------------------

Quo fas et gloria ducunt

Stereotypes

The Un-Rant

[AbramsGunner]

yeah that's what i found when using FAST and MOVE with reverse, the tank just moves up and then move down before engaging or when an engagement is about to begin.

[Guest Michael emrys]

Originally posted by AbramsGunner:

It would be great if a DELAY command could be used between movement orders (MAYBE IN CM2!) and then I could move up, wait XX seconds (giving me time to engage), and then back down, wait XX seconds, then move back up to engage, etc.

This has been suggested by a number of people, including me, but has not been warmly viewed by BTS. The reason given has been that it introduces a degree of micromanagement into the game that goes beyond what the designers wish to see. I can see their point, I believe, even though it makes the implementation of certain tactics difficult or even impossible.

In the case of the tactic you describe, I am not at all sure that it should be included in CM. Unless you or someone else can provide documentation that such tactics were used during the WW II period, I personally find it hard to justify in a game that is intended to describe that period.

Just my personal opinion, of course.

Michael

[Forever Babra]

Ya build your house with the tools ya got.

------------------

Quo fas et gloria ducunt

Stereotypes

The Un-Rant

[Bullethead]

I think it's pretty easy to accomplish the pop-up attack by making use of the time stoppage between turns to issue the order to reverse back down your side of the hill. I think this gives me better flexibility because after my tank's been on the crest for a while in the previous turn, he might have solved the problem so should now advance instead of pulling back.

I like to keep my tanks on the crest for about 30 seconds, enough for 2 shots in case I miss with the first. I figure to be hull down up there so I'm comfortable with the risk--I plan on the enemy needing 3 shots to kill me, the 1st being a clean miss and the 2nd being a short thanks to me being hull down. Sometimes I'm unlucky but this 30 second exposure seems to work most of the time. But I've also got the AI on my side here, because if it doesn't like what it sees when it gets to the top, it will often back down immediately.

I normally play with regulars, which seem to require 13 seconds or so to respond to new orders. Thus, I try to have my guys reach their firing position about 45 seconds into a turn, so they get 15 seconds that turn. Next turn, I order them to reverse and they respond about 13 seconds later (but usually fire a 2nd shot beforehand), moving out of sight shortly thereafter, for a total of about 30 seconds.

To get the tank to arrive on time, I have previously positioned it at an appropriate distance behind the crest, depending on the slope. I use the Hunt order to move up because that is almost as fast as Move Fast but has a better chance of stopping when reaching a hull down position. I know how long it takes the tank to cover X amount of distance uphill at this speed, so that's where I put my tank the turn before. I also use the Pause command as needed to juggle arrival time.

Another advantage of doing the pop-up relatively late in the turn is that this gives you about 45 seconds to distract the intended target with something else, like the advance of a rifle platoon on the forward slope of a hill towards cover at the bottom. In Hell, this is what they call "tank-infantry cooperation". But seriously, if you hold up your grunt advance just because an enemy tank can shoot them from several hundred meters away, you cede the initiative and lose time, both of which are usually irreplaceable and thus cost more than a few grunts.

------------------

-Bullethead

In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria.

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

This has been suggested by a number of people, including me, but has not been warmly viewed by BTS. The reason given has been that it introduces a degree of micromanagement into the game that goes beyond what the designers wish to see. I can see their point, I believe, even though it makes the implementation of certain tactics difficult or even impossible.

In the case of the tactic you describe, I am not at all sure that it should be included in CM. Unless you or someone else can provide documentation that such tactics were used during the WW II period, I personally find it hard to justify in a game that is intended to describe that period.

Just my personal opinion, of course.

Michael

Doesn't sound right to have to prove that folks were smart enough to poke their nose over the top of a crest, pause a couple seconds, look around, fire a round if there is a credible target and then reverse out of sight. Is it your opinion that this is some revolutionary tactic that did not occur until later on in time? This is *NOT* like asking for the obscure weapon of choice, just the ability for the user to have greater control.

I do agree it's fairly easy to get awfully close to the desired effect with a little practice as Bullethead suggests.

[Guest Andrew Hedges]

Originally posted by Dirtweasle:

Doesn't sound right to have to prove that folks were smart enough to poke their nose over the top of a crest, pause a couple seconds, look around, fire a round if there is a credible target and then reverse out of sight. Is it your opinion that this is some revolutionary tactic that did not occur until later on in time? This is *NOT* like asking for the obscure weapon of choice, just the ability for the user to have greater control.

I don't think that the command is just about pulling up, looking around, and then backing down. I think the command would be a type of battle drill that I don't know that WWII troops commonly -- that of pulling up into a hull down position, firing, retreating, and then repeating the action. I don't think that there should be a special command for that if wasn't a regular tactic. And of course you can pull up and back from the hill all you want.

There's also no command to order a squad to move to a certain point, split into half-squads, have the 1st half-squad continue to a specific location (typically with the second half-squad providing cover), stop, and then have the second half-squad run to the first squad and rejoin. This is a common modern movement tactic that wasn't much employed in WWII (although a full squad would often cover another full squad as it moved), so I don't think that there should be a special "overwatch" command that would allow this move to be made either

[Ksak]

I have been through the threads going back to '99 on this topic and the two schools of thought are between using Hunt and Fast to get to the crest. The Reverse way point is a constant. Hunt seems to be preferred for the best possibility of getting hull down to the front, where you expect the danger to come from.

The downside to Hunt is that your TD will stay on the crest until the target is destroyed. Or worse, your tank picks up a different, "worthless" target and stays exposed to engage it.

After assimilating the many posts my sense of it is that the "best" technique is Pause + Fast Move to your estimated hull down position. That combo seems to keep your TD exposed for the least amount of time. If you target the enemy track before moving you also increase the probability that your TD will engage that specific target as quickly as possible when it gets in position.

Bullethead has it down pretty good. That only thing I would add to his technique is to always complete the Reverse order and advance from a side of the hill rather than staying in clear view going over the crest. The TacAI is very good at taking advantage of LOS key holes that the human player does not see.

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

It is just a complaint about tempo and the tac AI being in charge of your men. You can do tophat and lowski, you are just restricted to doing it once per minute. You can do it for 1 or 2 shot exposure times. If that is enough to KO your target (including the fact that you may have several AFVs doing it), then fine, all you need. But you aren't the tank driver. The men in CM do things the way they decide, at the lowest level. "But I don't want to have to break by minute" well tough toenails, you do not get to give orders except once per minute, just like everybody else. A real WW II commander never had it so good - men that hear all of his commands every blessed minute and almost always pay attention to it...

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by Andrew Hedges:

I don't think that the command is just about pulling up, looking around, and then backing down. I think the command would be a type of battle drill that I don't know that WWII troops commonly -- that of pulling up into a hull down position, firing, retreating, and then repeating the action. I don't think that there should be a special command for that if wasn't a regular tactic. And of course you can pull up and back from the hill all you want.

There's also no command to order a squad to move to a certain point, split into half-squads, have the 1st half-squad continue to a specific location (typically with the second half-squad providing cover), stop, and then have the second half-squad run to the first squad and rejoin. This is a common modern movement tactic that wasn't much employed in WWII (although a full squad would often cover another full squad as it moved), so I don't think that there should be a special "overwatch" command that would allow this move to be made either

The overwatch technique is easily accomplished with the existing user interface. From what I've read the term "overwatch" was coined in this time period. Example; Closing with the Enemy, page 104 by Michael Doubler.

To the topic at hand though; Right now you have to mess around with a bunch of waypoints, and get the timing right on your own which takes some practice and seems less realistic than plopping a waypoint down at say a treeline or right before a hill crest and "pausing" to look around for a few seconds before either advancing or reversing. It would be desirable to be able to pause at any waypoint, not just at waypoints that were plotted durring different turns.

[Bullethead]

Dirtweasel said:

To the topic at hand though; Right now you have to mess around with a bunch of waypoints, and get the timing right on your own which takes some practice and seems less realistic than plopping a waypoint down at say a treeline or right before a hill crest and "pausing" to look around for a few seconds before either advancing or reversing. It would be desirable to be able to pause at any waypoint, not just at waypoints that were plotted durring different turns.

Well, in real life, leaders have to practice a lot with moving their troops around in tactical situations to learn how long it takes them to get from point A to B in various types of terrain while trying to avoid getting killed. This knowledge is absolutely essential for proper coordination of different elements of the force.

So making CM players do the same thing is IMHO much more realistic than being able to put in delay times at various waypoints. You can't do that in real life anyway, at least nowhere nearly to the extent you could if this feature was added.

------------------

-Bullethead

In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria.

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by Bullethead:

Dirtweasel said:

Well, in real life, leaders have to practice a lot with moving their troops around in tactical situations to learn how long it takes them to get from point A to B in various types of terrain while trying to avoid getting killed. This knowledge is absolutely essential for proper coordination of different elements of the force.

So making CM players do the same thing is IMHO much more realistic than being able to put in delay times at various waypoints. You can't do that in real life anyway, at least nowhere nearly to the extent you could if this feature was added.

You make a good point, but it just "feels" wrong not to be able to have a unit puase in certain situations irrespective of the users ability to judge time and distance problems. Perhaps some advanced tactical commands/soloutions ought to only be availale to veteran and above units? That would be interesting. 'course you go down this skippery slope, pretty soon the game is just a software toy you watch run while you sit back and have a beer and a smoke.

[Ksak]

I don't think it's a complaint Jason. I've never played anything in a PBEM thicker skinned than a Mark IV or a Sherman and knife fights almost always mean that I lose the track.

The CM commands are elegant in their simplicity but are very sophisticated in the nuances of connecting waypoints and target orders. The guys that have played for a while have a distinct advantage over the rookies because these things have become second nature to them.

There's nothing whiney or gamey about learning how to use the interface.

[Bullethead]

Ksak said:

Bullethead has it down pretty good. That only thing I would add to his technique is to always complete the Reverse order and advance from a side of the hill rather than staying in clear view going over the crest. The TacAI is very good at taking advantage of LOS key holes that the human player does not see.

This is a good point. But OTOH, those damn AI keyholes can be anywhere. With my luck, by going around the hill, I'd find an ATG with a 2-mil arc of fire boresighted right there

------------------

-Bullethead

In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria.