Fire from MG can kill Tank driver? (Not modeled in CM)

[killmore]

Couple of games I have played allowed MGs to kill the tank driver. I presume this is because the tank driver needs to look through a small hole in the armour in order to drive a tank.

Were these view slits protected by bullet-proof glass?

How common were the losses due to MG fire? I guess commander could be hurt too when he is looking around.

Also if MG bullet does get into tank it has a chance to do lots of damage due to ricochets...

[Gpig]

I think that CM models this to a certain degree.

When an unbuttoned tank crew suffers a crew casualty, it never actually specifies which crewmember bit it.

It could easily have been the driver, who's noggin is also stickin' out of a hatch.

But I think you may be wondering about hitting crewmembers while the tank is buttoned up. By firing a round through a vision slit? Is that right?

I know that CM does NOT model crew casualties to buttoned up tanks, from MG or small arms fire. But everything else (from fausts to Artillery) can cause casualties to crew members (of a buttoned vehicle) through a variety of means. Penetration, internal flaking, etc.

Gpig

[killmore]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gpig:

But I think you may be wondering about hitting crewmembers while the tank is buttoned up. By firing a round through a vision slit? Is that right?

Gpig<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats right - I think these might actually be important. I will suddenly make some sense to fire 50 caliber MG at front armour of say PzIV. You could immobilize the tanks. Or even kill more than one crew member. Any historical data on that?

[offtaskagain]

Panther D and A models had an actual flap in the glacis plate that lifted up to allow the driver to look out. The G replaced this with a solid plate and periscopes that looked outwards from holes in the deck plate. Tiger Is had bulletproof glass in the drivers vision block. Pz III and IV and their conversions also had a similar arrangement. I believe the purpouse built TDs had a periscope arrangement.

[killmore]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by panzerwerfer42:

Panther D and A models had an actual flap in the glacis plate that lifted up to allow the driver to look out.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This means that is flap was open then driver was vulnerable. I believe T34s had same system.

Doesn't the driver needs to have it open frequently when he drives?

What about KV-1? I recall it seem particularly vulnerable.

[Bastables]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by killmore:

This means that is flap was open then driver was vulnerable. I believe T34s had same system.

Doesn't the driver needs to have it open frequently when he drives?

What about KV-1? I recall it seem particularly vulnerable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Panther D and A had armoured glass blocks, meaning it was not vulnerable to errent MG fire.

[RMC]

Panther D and A also had two fixed periscopes, one facing forward and one to the driver's left at an angle. The G replaced this with one scope that could be rotated. The D also had a flap for the hull MG, something I never figured out - the Pz III had aball mount, the PZIV had one and the Tiger had one and her comes the first panther - doh!

Most of early stuff was vision blocks in th hull and a metal flap to over the drivers block. When this flap was down they needed to use a scope built into the hull plate right above that block.

Here's a shot from a StuG showing the flap closed and the scope in place.

and an exterior shot that clearly shows the two sight opening above the flap:

Now both of these shots were old versions and the later models had additional armor bolted over the sight holes. But on the Panzer III they left a gap:

[ 10-19-2001: Message edited by: RMC ]