rexford Posted August 19, 2001 Share Posted August 19, 2001 The Firefly IIC used the all-cast M4A1 hull type. Was it the early or late model M4A1 hull? The early M4A1 hull had 2" thick driver and bow gunner hoods at 37°, the late model M4A1 hull had 35° for driver and 47° for bow gunner hoods with 2.5" thickness. The early model hull would also be very prone to flaws since it was manufactured prior to October 1943 when quality control and heat treatment was improved, while the late model M4A1 was built with the maunfacturing improvements in place. Thank you for any help you can provide on this question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted August 19, 2001 Share Posted August 19, 2001 rexford, Digging into my tiny reference pool for British armor I came up with the following by Chamberlain and Ellis in their "The Sherman and the 17pdr." which is in Feist's JOURNAL: Military Panorama No. 1, Feist Publications, 1969. Page 15 says: Firefly Types Most Fireflies were converted from the Sherman V (US designation:M4A4) mainly because the British had large lease-lend deliveries of this model, and the next most numerous were basically the Sherman I (M4). Of these a proportion were were the late-production M4 type with combination cast and rolled upper hulls which were newly delivered vehicles from USA sent for conversion to 17 pounder type. The British called this variant the Sherman Hybrid because it had the appearance of a cross between the cast-hull M4A1 and the welded M4. A very small number of M4A1 (British Sherman II), M4A2 (British Sherman III), and M4A3 (British Sherman IV) were also converted, the latter in very small numbers only since relativelyfew M4A3s came to Britain. Now, assuming that my tired brain properly processed all that detailed model differentiation stuff, the answer to your question is that both the standard cast-hull Sherman and the hybrid Sherman were used to make Fireflies. You should therefore invest the time to analyze both penetration cases. The cited article has pictures of both types in field service. I hope this helps. Regards, John Kettler PS Glad the books were actually of use! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babra Posted August 19, 2001 Share Posted August 19, 2001 Try and locate a photo of one first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted August 23, 2001 Share Posted August 23, 2001 Babra, The article I reference has pictures of both types in question, along with many other Firefly versions including the rare Coldstream Guards' field mods armed with 60 lb. rockets. Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babra Posted August 23, 2001 Share Posted August 23, 2001 Can you scan a pic perchance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted August 23, 2001 Share Posted August 23, 2001 Babra, I can try, but I have nowhere to host the image. Which Firefly type were you interested in seeing? Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babra Posted August 23, 2001 Share Posted August 23, 2001 IIC, of course. Just email them to me, if you would. I'd appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mccooper Posted August 23, 2001 Share Posted August 23, 2001 Hello The references quoted for Firefly types are old and full of errors. There were only 3 types of firefly in service - IC based on the M4, IC Hybrid on the M4A1/M4 hull (this is commonly mis-identified as a IIC due to the A1 front hull) and the VC based on the M4A4 hull. When someone comes up with photographic proof I will believe otherwise but so far all of the supposed IIC photos have been debunked. Now if you come up with some new photos I'd love to see them as debating photos is great fun. Oh the Cdn army also produced a prototype Firefly based on the Cdn grizzly hull. This is closest thing in existence to a IIC. Later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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