Spook Posted January 10, 2000 Share Posted January 10, 2000 To R Cunningham: Assuming that you were responding to my earlier comment about German uniform grey for CM, what you've suggested is probably true in that a museum uniform set was used for reference. (That's still speculation by both of us, of course, which can be corrected by Steve or other BTS members if they choose.) From the few color pictures I've seen of Germans in WW2, and through various references like from Squadron & Osprey, the greenish field gray seems to have predominated at least for the early to mid-war timeframe. Towards the war's end, it's certainly more likely that a variety of greys were used for German uniforms, depending on the specific service branch or on production limitations. (Even the camo smocks had significant variations, and Italian camo uniforms were utilized by the Germans when available.) Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest R Cunningham Posted January 10, 2000 Share Posted January 10, 2000 Spook, Yes, i was responding to you, I just didn't check back to see who had made the comment. I am not a uniform specialist. I don't have a lot of good info on the variation during the war. I do remember seeing color photographs of German soldiers that made the uniforms look more green than grey. One book I have about the Großdeutschland shows a kradmelder on the front and his uniform looks almost green. I found the image online: It doesn't show it off as much here but it looks more green in real life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted January 10, 2000 Share Posted January 10, 2000 Hello, seeing as this is a topic about modifying troop textures, how about creating one version of US Soldiers without the Khaki field jacket and just the Olive green undercoat? Tried this myself, but, I don't have the time to learn a new graphics program as yet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted January 10, 2000 Share Posted January 10, 2000 Yup, you got it, that's what I was referring to as "field grey" or green-grey. From a distance, it looks more green than gray, and isn't very far removed from variations in "olive drab". (Or rather, faded olive drab.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted January 11, 2000 Share Posted January 11, 2000 CoolColJ and Colin, Just downloaded the Uniforms. I'll probable be able to add them to the Graphics file tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolColJ Posted January 11, 2000 Author Share Posted January 11, 2000 My German uniforms are actually just a grey - I might try the greener look. But The orangey camo of the SS troops bothers me, I don't think they were that bright. anyone have a pic to help me mod it properly? What do all the downloaders think of my Tweaked Uniforms? I think the Us ones look very good. ------------------ ------------------ CCJ BLITZ_Force My HomePage -----> www.geocities.com/coolcolj/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolColJ Posted January 11, 2000 Author Share Posted January 11, 2000 heres wwhat i got Is this what the PanzerGrenadier camo look like? ------------------ ------------------ CCJ BLITZ_Force My HomePage -----> www.geocities.com/coolcolj/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolColJ Posted January 11, 2000 Author Share Posted January 11, 2000 OK FOW Flags are up - got get em from my site as listed in my sig. For tjose you like a bit of extra FOW ------------------ ------------------ CCJ BLITZ_Force My HomePage -----> www.geocities.com/coolcolj/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted January 11, 2000 Share Posted January 11, 2000 Referring to one Squadron reference, CoolColJ, the camo smock that you've posted looks similar to Italian-derived patterns. This was definitely used by some German panzergrenadiers in NW Europe. The lower picture is appears to be a field grey, but may look different from R.C.'s due to interior lighting & the backdrop. My impression of the uniform grey for the CM Germans (in the demo) is that it looks more "bluish" instead. Some Germans likely did have such a tint for their uniforms, but I don't believe it was the standard. This is all such a minor point to some, I am sure, but if this game is supposed to play up the infantry's role in the same way as armor, then I'd like to see CM infantry uniforms hold up a "realistic" appearance in the same way that the armor vehicles have. (I've been very impressed so far with the German vehicles in the demo, to say nothing of what the full game is gonna show us.) Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolColJ Posted January 11, 2000 Author Share Posted January 11, 2000 Cool I'll go and re-tweak the german grey uniform to a greener colour. I'll let everyone know hwne I get this done, I might even mod the camo version too. There is one type I noticed in Saving Private Ryan, quite drab looking. But I really like my tweaked US uniform ------------------ ------------------ CCJ BLITZ_Force My HomePage -----> www.geocities.com/coolcolj/ [This message has been edited by CoolColJ (edited 01-10-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted January 11, 2000 Share Posted January 11, 2000 Hey col just tried to dl your textures and the zip file is damaged. I redownladed it again and got the same message indicating the same to files within the zip. I would like to try these textures has anyone else had probs recently ? Thanks ------------------ SS_PanzerLeader....out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 11, 2000 Share Posted January 11, 2000 Hey SS_Panzerleader! Do youu mean me or CoolColJ? I fixed the image on my webpage that wasn't appearing properly. ------------------ Visit my Combat Mission for Mac page! Soon to have some exclusive screenshots courtesy of Madmatt! cm4mac.tripod.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted January 11, 2000 Share Posted January 11, 2000 I downloaded and applied your US-infantry textures to the demo, CoolColJ. (The download got through OK for me.) It looks really good, it strikes a good balance. I'll probably use yours if the CM infantry colors for the final version don't seem right for me. Ed [This message has been edited by Spook (edited 01-10-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolColJ Posted January 11, 2000 Author Share Posted January 11, 2000 SS_PanzerL I tried it just then - had no probs - try it again, it might have been becuase, I was updating the site, while you trying to download or somthing ------------------ ------------------ CCJ BLITZ_Force My HomePage -----> www.geocities.com/coolcolj/ [This message has been edited by CoolColJ (edited 01-11-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 11, 2000 Share Posted January 11, 2000 Cool tweaks, especially love the "How's My Driving?" Tiger As for the uniforms. Let me just say one thing here... uniforms are my passion, so I not only know a thing or three about them, but I have far too many expensive books on them as well So I will clear up some things here. There will be a few generalizations and probably a mistake or two since I am not double checking... RE: Wehrmacht uniform coloring... Originally the standard German field tunic came in basically one style for the first and second year of the war. There were a few variations, but for the sake of argument let us treat them as one. It consisted of a Feldgrau (greenishgray) wool with a dark green collar area with metal collar tabs. The shoulder ranks for enlisted/NCO soldiers had a dark green background as well. Waffenfarbe (branch of service color) was used around the metal tabs and epaulets. There was also a similar cut of uniform in cotton, but the feldgrau color was less dark and wore light after a while in the sun and fun of the battlefield. As the war progressed the quality of the wool declined. More and more synthetic fibers were added, which decreased the quality of the cloth and also its ability to hold dyes. So as the war went on the uniforms became more and more gray. After the blood letting of the first winter in Russia, the uniform was simplified. The distinctive dark green color was dropped for both the collar and the epaulets. Instead, they were the same color as the rest of the uniform. The collar tabs were also changed to cloth instead of metal. Various shortcuts were also taken for the national eagle to save on labor and materials. Not only was the color progressively getting more gray, but the uniform itself changed a great deal to save on materials. The last pattern bore practically NO resemblance to the one everybody is used to. It was more like a British uniform with a short jacket instead of the long tunic. This uniform was nearly all man made materials and was, bluntly, a piece of crap as far as quality goes. Color of this uniform was very gray. Officers very often paid to have custom tailored uniforms in the old style cut and quality. NCOs and other career soldiers also kept their older uniforms (and boots!) as long as they could before they wore out. Similar things happened to the Waffen SS field (non camo) uniforms. RE: SS "Dot" or "Peas 44" camo uniforms... The "Dot" camo used for the SS uniform in the game came from repro cloth I own. Its colors are as correct as can be. The uniforms you see in museums and some private collections are *MUCH* lighter. This is due to the fact that they are over 50 years old and, at least the museum ones, have been under near constant natural, fluorescent, and standard lighting for much of that time. In other words, the color has been bleached out. Would soldiers in the field have a uniform as bright as the one in the game now? The ones in Normandy in fact did. These guys were outfitted with new duds just before the invasion. The cloth was strong and the quality of the dye good, so they held up well in combat. As they were worn they of course lightened. It was my call to go with the brighter one as it is more indicative of the bulk of SS scenarios that could be made. Not only that, but the brighter colors show up better and differentiate themselves well from the other troops. There were at least two versions of the "Dot" SS camo. The one I used is probably the more common of the two (the third possible one seems to be a slight color variant). I have plenty of pics of such uniforms in private collections that are as dark as the one in the game. Such uniforms obviously have been better kept than the ones in museums. (i.e. stored in darkness, not harsh light). RE: Other camo... The Germans, especially the SS, had a LOT of different camo patterns. They basically breakdown into about 6 categories; Jigsaw, Tan&Water, Dot, Burred Edge, Plain Tree, and Oak Leaf. The last 4 are exclusively SS. There were some exceptions, like the SS Palm Tree pattern, and LOTS of variations. The pic that CCJ has above is a late war reversible winter jacket in Tan&Water pattern (most common variant). They were issued in large numbers, but FAR too few to be seen on the average soldier. In fact, only the Waffen SS managed to nearly completely uniform its soldiers in some form of camo or other (mish mosh of styles and clothing). CONCLUSION... This is NOT a simple study, let me tell you. There are very few things you can point your finger at after 1943 and say "AH!! That is standard". As the war dragged on the word "standard" as it was seen in the field was very hard to spot. A fresh unit *might* be kitted out the same way, but due to reuse of "damaged" uniforms (i.e. ones with patched holes from the previous owner), transfer of cadres, shortages, etc. even this isn't a sure bet. So, we picked the most common uniforms for each of the branches for each of the armies in question. The textures themselves are NOT final, but the style is not likely to change. One thing is for sure though... you will not be seeing the early war Fledgrau uniforms as by 1944 they were pretty much only worn by officers that could afford them. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted January 11, 2000 Share Posted January 11, 2000 That musta been it I got it now thanks COl - gonna check em out ------------------ SS_PanzerLeader....out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted January 11, 2000 Share Posted January 11, 2000 Textures look great - landscaping is easier onteh eye to spot troops thx man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted January 11, 2000 Share Posted January 11, 2000 Colin, I have finished 4 Graphic files for you. Full texture mod with FOW flags, Full texture mod without FOW flags, Uniform mods only with FOW flags and Uniform mods only without FOW flags. The files are to large to e-mail... your e-mail server bounced it when I tried e-mailing it to you. I am going to try making ResCompare patches (much smaller files). I have never used ResCompare, so it may take awhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolColJ Posted January 11, 2000 Author Share Posted January 11, 2000 Ohhhh the Mac system sounds fun I'm glad you guys like my Tweaks It makes it all worthwhile - well its for myself, but I like to share the fruits of my labour ------------------ ------------------ CCJ BLITZ_Force My HomePage -----> www.geocities.com/coolcolj/ [This message has been edited by CoolColJ (edited 01-11-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolColJ Posted January 11, 2000 Author Share Posted January 11, 2000 Steve Your the man! I now understand ATTENTION! Anyone who downloaded the Tweaked Uniforms, I've retouched the US infantry uniforms - see the pic at the start of this thread for changes - it looks much better Its only 110k so go re-download it ------------------ ------------------ CCJ BLITZ_Force My HomePage -----> www.geocities.com/coolcolj/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted January 11, 2000 Share Posted January 11, 2000 To Steve: Thanks for posting your reply and explaining your rationale behind your uniform color choices. Such discussion improves the insight of all concerned, and I find your style of moderation more refreshing than what I would get from other game forum moderators. You don't post, "I know what I'm doing, so trust me", you also back up your comments. I've since inspected the individual texture bitmaps for the US & German (regular) uniforms, and the regular German color has more of a "steel grey" instead of "bluish" appearance than I alluded to earlier. If you have sufficient references to indicate that such a color (or close variations) became more prominent in the later war years, then I will defer to you. I have to add, however, that on this issue, I am not just making off-the-cuff comments regarding the infantry uniforms in the CM demo that they don't look "right" to me. My scattered references on WW2 uniforms probably won't match yours, but with over 20+ years of collecting various WW2 references (mainly for plastic modeling), if I see something that runs counter to my admittedly-biased perceptions, then I will speak on the matter. If you choose uniform "standard" for CM purposes, so be it. (I hope you could consider adding winter uniforms in the distant future, though.) But I must add one other thought in how fixing to a standard can lead to another trap. You may recall my earlier comments that I didn't like the US infantry colors about a month ago. Having since inspected the uniform texture bitmaps, I can see that you can argue that your color choices are relatively authentic. They appear so in the "flat" texture. The trap that I'm alluding to, however, is a controversial modeler's topic called "color scale." The essence of color scale is that the further away an object is from you, the lighter its dark colors will appear to be---and slightly darker for the very light colors. So for plastic models of smaller physical scales (like 1/72nd or 1/144th), painting the model to the "standard" color will almost certainly give the perception of a "darker" color than what it really is. So how does this apply to CM? The answer is that color scale CAN'T be applied with any absolute reference; you can zoom out to make your troops like ants or zoom in close enough to shake virtual hands with these guys. So instead, I think that a good middle ground to approach for scale purposes is to reduce overall "contrast" and color "depth" in the uniforms. The US infantry uniform (and why it bothers me in the demo) is a good example to me of full-throttle contrast. The khaki looks too bright & yellowish, and the OD green looks too dark or "minted", IMO. And I think this is the basis of CoolColJ's comment on the SS uniform colors. They may be real-life authentic, but might appear with too much contrast or depth in CM. My arguments about all of this will certainly seem trivial to most others, and adds nothing to the far more important issues of the game model and interface. (It's that very same model in CM that got me to pre-order, with all of its attached innovation.) But to me, giving a "realistic" appearance to the infantry (or at least an appearance that doesn't irritate me) is essential to enjoying this close-up 3-D environment in CM. After all, it's not supposed to be just about the tanks alone. Of course, I could just modify the textures myself, but I haven't got nearly the computer grahics skills as someone like CoolColJ does. Well, Steve, having shot off my mouth on this issue, I will follow up and e-mail to you the referenced comments on "color scale" if you so wish. Again, thanks for sharing your thoughts, and doing so in a manner that helps all of us be better informed on this and many other WW2 topics. Ed [This message has been edited by Spook (edited 01-11-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 11, 2000 Share Posted January 11, 2000 Hi Ed, As a modeler (once upon a time) that "specialized" in 1/35th German soliders first and foremost, I do understand what you are talking about. As you say, there is no easy answer for CM, nor is there for modelers themselves. I am one of those guys that dislikes the accentuated details so that they will be visible at the near distance (i.e. creases in uniforms, straps on equipment, bolt holes on vehicles, etc.) Hard to describe, but I think you know what I mean. Yet there is a very strong group which thinks that making details more constrasty is the right way to do it. As with all things, there is very rarely total agreement with any group If anything, we feel that we should err toward the style that best shows up the units (men and machine) at medium distances. Say... Camera #3 about 300m behind the unit in question. The original SS camo we had in the game was of the faded variety that you see in museums. At the angle/distance I just mentioned the SS guys were actually hard to tell apart from the US guys. Now there is no problemo. I guess what I am saying is that when I redo the textures (from the ground up, not from the existing ones) your comments and thoughts will be kept in mind. I have no idea what I will churn out, but I am sure you will find them better than what is in the game right now. Perfect? Never. Impossible for the reasons you mentioned concerning distance. As for the standard uniform thing. Nobody wants to have more varried uniforms more than I do The variety of uniforms, especially for the Germans, is astonishing. Except for the 45 pattern (the one that looks like the Brit uniform) I find each one very cool. But we have to stick to one per unit type due to VRAM and programming considerations. We do want to support Winter uniforms in the future, but it is too much to bite off for the first release. So many good ideas, so little time... Thanks again for your support, both here and in our ordering system As you rightly point out, whatever anybody has to say about CM, they should at least understand that we do in fact care about the details that go into it. Even though we can't please everybody all the time, we at least aren't making arbitrary decisions based on ignorance. If that should ever change, someoen is welcome to clump me on the head with my MP44 to make me remember that the details are important Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted January 11, 2000 Share Posted January 11, 2000 Very well, I'll look forward to your work when the final version comes in the mail. Thanks again for your thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolColJ Posted January 12, 2000 Author Share Posted January 12, 2000 Also the texture sizes are quite small or maybe its D3d, but anything I put in gets quite blurred SO I don't bother putting in too much detail Hey STeve those newer builds, are you guys using larger texture sizes for the ground? ------------------ ------------------ CCJ BLITZ_Force My HomePage -----> www.geocities.com/coolcolj/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted January 12, 2000 Share Posted January 12, 2000 Hey all you Mac ResEditors! ResCompare totally kicks ass! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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