Tanks, Radio and C&C in CM2

[Uedel]

Ok read the Thread where BTS statet that CM2 will be placed in the Eastern Front. So i sit here and mind a bit on it.

What we all know is that Russian Tanks got Special in the beginning of the War seldom a Radio onboard. Now we got to think about it.

In CM 1 we play on a front where Tankradios on both sides where common. Not so when it comes then to CM2, where Tanks on Russian side have no radios and somethink got to plot in the lack of C&C of the Tanks.

I see it this way working good:

a) Make it work like it works in CM1 with Infantry so that 5 Tanks build 1 (Squad?) Unit with 1 Tank as Leader Tank.

So if in Range of the Leader Orders will be set Quick and good (Delay 8 sec´s and Waypoints followed correct).

If the Tanks got to be Bottomed or to far away from the leader the C&C line is alomost Broken what lead to a much longer reaction Time on Orders (maybe 45-60 sec´s) Orders may be not set up correct (failure in Waypoints or Driving fast instead of Hunt or some failures that might happen when communication is not good).

The Tanks maybe could also be under C&C from Platoon Leaders of Infantry but then also with a little penalty because a Infantry Lt. is no Tankleader .

What did u all the other Players think about this Theme.

Hopefull of many responses

Uedel

[Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>-]

Sounds good, how about getting a radio knocked out in battle means slower reaction times also. Shoot those damn tanks with the big antenna sticking out the top!!!!!

[Uedel]

Yes think this could be done or ?

[Wayne]

I'm pretty sure that BTS is considering this situation since they modeled CM after Squad Leader and this limitation is in ASL. Perhaps require a tank out of C&C to pass a "die roll" before it carrys out the orders you give it. It would be similar to infantry units that have broken before and are now unreliable. This will also have to be addressed in the 1940 version for the Western Front in France with British and French tanks which lacked radios.

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Blessed be the Lord my strength who teaches my hands to war and my fingers to fight.

[Fionn]

Actually CM wasn't really modelled after Squad Leader since SL had so many abstractions etc that it would totally have screwed up CM to base stuff on SL.

CM was based on the basics in history texts in the same way SL was.

That CM is still CSL is still a major misconception though.

[Uedel]

huh i would not start a war here i would only bring a sugestion

I never played or owned ASL or CSL or some of the Board games so i cant discuss this item

[This message has been edited by Uedel (edited 08-17-2000).]

[The Commissar]

Russo tanks comunicated with flags, right? So, if a Russian tank is in view of it's commander (whether he is infantry or a fellow tanker) and is unbottoned, then the tank moves like normal with no communication penalties. If the tank is forced to button, nothing can be done to tell it to unbutton unless of course it can see its commander out of the gunner's or driver's views.

If it cannot see the commander, the tank will continue to fire but will only unbutton when it deems it safe. In veteran tankers, this would be as soon as possible, while with Green tankers this might tank a while. Thus, be careful about buttoning your T-34's

You think this could work? I'd like to see how BTS handles it.

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...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[This message has been edited by The Commissar (edited 08-17-2000).]

[robo]

A really simple solution would be just give these tanks a longer delay time for all orders.

[Rattus]

CM1 assumes every vehicle has a radio & is always in command. I would like to see some of the command problems proposed for radioless vehicles for CM2 to be implemented in a patch for these for CM1.

[Olle Petersson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Uedel:

a) Make ... 5 Tanks build 1 (Squad?) Unit with 1 Tank as Leader Tank.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The unit would be a platoon, and it's something I'd like to see implemented even for vehicles with radio. Radios alone doesn't allow the HQ to get a good grip of the situation, but will distribute orders faster.

My suggestion is that there's a command radius to all HQ vehicles, but this radius is a bit longer for those units with radios and broken with LOS for units without radio.

The way it works currently is good as long as there are only one or two vehicles a side, but once the number of AFVs grows they shouldn't function as individuals but more based on platoons and companies, just like the infantry.

Cheers

Olle

[Uedel]

It´s a little like WesternFront from Talonsoft where 4-6 Tanks build 1 Unit (as it was in real).

I think the C&C chain should not only be broken/disturbet when LOs is gone or the Tank is buttoned it should also be down when the Tanks go away further then maybe 150 meters because the Tank Commander has sure no Chearleaders with giant Flags to signalize IMO the Flags a little more handsized and that will be harder to spot when 100 or 150 meters away (depends on weather/Light)

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Uedel:

I think the C&C chain should not only be broken/disturbet when LOs is gone or the Tank is buttoned it should also be down when the Tanks go away further then maybe 150 meters because the Tank Commander has sure no Chearleaders with giant Flags to signalize IMO the Flags a little more handsized and that will be harder to spot when 100 or 150 meters away (depends on weather/Light)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not only that, it meant that a tank commander had to devote a good part of his attention to the company or platoon commander's tank lest he miss a signal. This meant that he spent a bit less time watching for other things...like that AT gun drawing a bead on him.

Michael

[Pascal DI FOLCO]

I was indeed wondering why vehicles in CM were not organized in platoons/companies like infantry does...

This alone will at least allow for variable delays if in/out of CC.

Presence or not of radios must be handled independently. One idea is to consider that communication between radio-equipped vehicles is "instant", and take some time (at least 30 sec) if one has no radio.

Other refinements can be added : for example, radioless tanks not within LOS of leader should be automatically out of CC, the leader must be unbuttoned for his in-LOS troops to be in command (he had to make signs, handle flags...), etc..

I think BTS already work on this, as Russian tanks were radioless at the start of the war, and the current modelling of CM considers vehicles to have radios.

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PDF

[Jasper]

What is the source material for the assumption posted here that the Russians didn't put radio's in their T-34's? I would be very interested to find out what it is. My own personal research into this area has not (yet) focused on Russian capabilities, but I have found one source that is contrary to this assumption.

http://www.armyradio.com/Default.htm?http&&&www.armyradio.com/publish/Articles/William_Howard_German/German_Radios.htm

"Detailed accounts of the 1940 battle of France illustrate time and again how the French army lacked the proper command and control techniques. Despite having a numerically superior tank force, the French were never able to mount a concentrated defence or a major counter attack. Their battle plans were issued verbally before combat and units would have to stop and regroup to receive updated objectives.

During battle most commands were relayed via flag signal. These signals were frequently obscured by smoke, darkness or a dispersed battlefield and thus never received The French forces that were radio equipped often fared no better. One report mentions a French unit whose radio batteries ran down just before combat, thus insuring a lack of proper communication.

The invasion of Russia in 1941 again pitted the Germans against an opponent with inadequate command and control capacity. In the case of the Soviets, however, it was mostly a lack of proper training that left them paralysed. When the Germans encountered the radio equipped T-34 tank, no Wehrmacht tank could defeat it at normal combat ranges. Heavy artillery, 88rnrn anti-aircraft guns or attacks from the side or rear were needed to knock out a T-34.

The Soviets were never able to press this advantage however. Their armoured commanders lacked the ability and freedom to make rapid decisions. While local counter attacks by T-34s were often successful, they were not maintainable without fresh combat orders or co-ordination with other units. By the time further counter-attack was approved and organised, a German defence would usually be prepared. Thus, while most Soviet armour had basic radio equipment, the training and infrastructure necessary to properly utilise this radio equipment was not available."

[Jasper]

First sorry for the messy URL. You might have to put the two pieces together to find the page. If you have a problem, post here and I'll try alternate URL's to get you there.

Second there is some distance between the next-to-last paragraph and the last paragraph, I was going to put in some periods to show this, but forgot.

[Alexander]

From my younger, grog days I recall reading that German vehicles had FM radios as opposed to AM radios for the Soviets- when they had them.

As was remarked above, when they're only a few tanks per side, platoon org for vehicles isn't critical. Some CM scenarios like South of Sword or Benicourt, however, play out in a never-never-land of freelancing tanks. I can see that coding TacAI for vehicular platoons would be a major undertaking- but if anyone is up to it BTS is.

Intuition suggests that WW2 radios frequently malfunctioned due to wear and tear or enemy action. They were probably like modern cel phones with dead zones and frequent dropouts. It would be interesting to have the stats on what % of Allied tanks at any given moment had working radios.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Wow, a blast from the past

We are still hashing out a system that will allow fair and realistic treatment of limited command and control. We'll let everybody know what we have planned out when we have done all our homework and designs.

Jasper quoted:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>When the Germans encountered the radio equipped T-34 tank, no Wehrmacht tank could defeat it at normal combat ranges.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, this is an overstatement to begin with. First of all, some Germans tanks could knock out T-34s at "normal combat range" (er... what is "normal combat range" ), but it required a whole lot of effort, luck, sound tactics, and nerves of steel. Secondly, on an individual basis, a T-34 without a radio was just as hard to knock out as one with a radio. The difference was that the Soviets couldn't manuever as effectively as the Germans could, which was also heavily due to Soviet tactical doctrine and lack of experienced crews.

In short... this statement is blowing the impact of the radio out of proportion to its combat value in this context.

But putting that aside, this statement does not mean that ALL T-34s had radios. It certainly doesn't mean that ALL Soviet post '30s tanks had radios. If the author did in fact think this was true, it is definitely incorrect.

Due to shortages of radio equipment, generally only HQ tanks had a radio. The early quality of these radios, IIRC, was also inferior to German ones. However, as the war went on the Soviets managed to overcome these problems, thanks in large part to Lend-Lease radio equipment from the Western Allies (exclusively the US??). Lend-Lease tanks from the Western Allies also came complete with radios.

Steve

[Jasper]

I'll ask again. Please post source material regarding Soviet tank radio's. Who said what and where did they get their information? Might save me some time. Thanks.

PS That quote was not from me but the site I attributed.

[Dittohead]

This must have been one of Fionn's last posts. Though I'm too lazy to look it up.

But if Russian tanks do have some type of C&C restictions then the Cmd Tank should be easily recognizable, so it can be killed first. bwhhhaaaaa