Lacky Posted November 25, 2000 Share Posted November 25, 2000 While playing the computer, I had one of my Hellcats knock itself out. It was partially hull downed and firing at enemy infantry on the top floor of a building. The infantry broke morale and started to flee. It fled downstairs. My Hellcat continued tracking the enemy infantry, although it no longer had a true LOS to the target (due to elevation and being hulled down). The hellcat fired anyway, even without the LOS. The round landed approximately 15 meters dead ahead into the hillside. I couldn't believe it. I checked my Hellcat's kill. Listed in the kill column: 1 M18 Hellcast Destroyed Hrm.... why would an HE round knock out a hellcat at 15 meters? And why would the Hellcat fire into the hill directly in front of it? The Gunner is tracking the target, too. My Hellcat was unbuttoned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ACTOR Posted November 25, 2000 Share Posted November 25, 2000 That's no bug Lacky. Strange things happen in war, and an HE shell at 15 meters could hurt the crew thus rendering it useless. Open top armor is highly susceptible to HE. I have had similar things happen before. Good hunting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffRaider Posted November 25, 2000 Share Posted November 25, 2000 Well, the TD Crew's idea that maybe our HE will penetrate the side of this cliff is a little bit buggy. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitch Posted November 25, 2000 Share Posted November 25, 2000 Thats funny, same thing happens to me when I have my German arty men...they don't aim very well, and end up killing half my infantry and sometimes themselves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-tink- Posted November 26, 2000 Share Posted November 26, 2000 This has happened to me also, in fact it has happened in every TD I have played with. Must be the open top................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lacky Posted November 26, 2000 Author Share Posted November 26, 2000 Perhaps this needs to be addressed. The shot from my Hellcat to target was < 200 meters. That's a flat trajectory shot. The gunner wouldn't take a shot through the side of a hill hoping his HE round 'passing through' the hill *lol* Tank hunters are suppose to maximize use of terrain. With this bug in place, it's dangerous business. What if your PBEM opponent notices one of your vehicles take a shot like this and intentionally runs their infantry to the bottom floor for safety? Poof, infantry is safe and tank knocks itself out! *hahah* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaka Posted November 26, 2000 Share Posted November 26, 2000 Just to make it clear "The round landed approximately 15 meters dead ahead into the hillside. I couldn't believe it. I checked my Hellcat's kill. Listed in the kill column: 1 M18 Hellcat Destroyed" This isn't a bug... "The hellcat fired anyway, even without the LOS" this could be a bug... but 1) Are you sure when the M18 fired, during the movie, he hadn't any LOS to the infantry ? 2) What were the LOS conditions ? was it night, clear day ....? 3) Maybe the shot was intended to go over the hill top and land in the 2nd floor... the gunner missed it 4) was the M18 moving ? that's it João Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hnh3_cm Posted November 26, 2000 Share Posted November 26, 2000 I had a TD knock itself out with its own .50 cal MG once. Now that was annoying! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compassion Posted November 26, 2000 Share Posted November 26, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lacky: Perhaps this needs to be addressed. The shot from my Hellcat to target was < 200 meters. That's a flat trajectory shot. The gunner wouldn't take a shot through the side of a hill hoping his HE round 'passing through' the hill *lol* <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> At 15 meters you are still dealing with the parallax effect in the targeting optics. This is WWII, remember. They do not have a down the bore gunsight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lacky Posted November 26, 2000 Author Share Posted November 26, 2000 Tanaka, here are your answers. 1) The M18 had LOS to the top floor of the building occupied by enemy infantry. It could not trace LOS to the bottom floor during the turn before (I checked). I didn't want to issue hunt command to the M18 due to enemy armor nearby. I issue direct fire orders to fire the main gun at the enemy infantry. 2) Daytime, Clear Skies 3) I "guess" the gunner could miss. The trajectory from barrel is rather flat and straight at this range for a 76mm. The Gunner could not visibly see the enemy infantry moving down stairs. The gunner indirectly fired WITH a hill directly in front of him. If I was the gunner... I'd make sure I cleared that hill! 4) The M18 was stationary. I'm not sure what parallax effect is. There's a process with targeting, which might be causing this bug. The game checks LOS, then 'attacks.' Perhaps the game checked LOS, returned true, tracked the target (target is moving, thus requiring barrel suppression), then fires upon acquisition even though the shot might no longer be true. Ergo, the shot lands directly in the face of my M18 (which isn't good!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compassion Posted November 26, 2000 Share Posted November 26, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lacky: I'm not sure what parallax effect is. There's a process with targeting, which might be causing this bug. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> without seeing the case in a screenshot, I can't say for sure, but it does not sound like a bug. Parallax is the condition of the gunsight... it's not in the barell, right? Has to be offset. If the target is too close (or too far) the slight offset might make it appear to be a good shot, but the actual bore is pointed at seomthing closer than what the sight is seeing. Get it? If so does this sound like an explanation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lacky Posted November 26, 2000 Author Share Posted November 26, 2000 Thank you for the explanation of parallax effect. The result would entail the gunner to view below the direct line (plane) from the sights to target. In essence, the gunner is looking below the horizon while the barrel is elevated near or above the horizon for the trajectory. It wouldn't allow the gunner to see over the hill. As a matter of fact, the gunner would be staring dab into the side of the hill when he triggered the main gun to fire. That's not good. Not good at all! I still feel this is a bug. It seems the game mechanics allow for 'tracking after LOS is invalid.' [This message has been edited by Lacky (edited 11-25-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compassion Posted November 26, 2000 Share Posted November 26, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lacky: The result would entail the gunner to view below the direct line (plane) from the sights to target. In essence, the gunner is looking below the horizon while the barrel is elevated near or above the horizon for the trajectory. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> ...or above... or to the side... without knowing where the sight is located, there's no way to tell. Do you have a reference? Also, is there an alternate command sight where the TC can aim directly? Is that set high? Was the TD sitting at an angle (like on a slope)? You might look into it as I'm not sure on either count. IF the sight is lower than the gun, then you may have something, maybe. It may also be an effect of a crew being over excited and part of the modeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lacky Posted November 26, 2000 Author Share Posted November 26, 2000 I don't know where the gunner's sight is located. Yet sighting is direct line, line of sight. It goes about the call of this game to determine the relative position of gun sights. The main gun will always be elevated at or above the LOS of the guns sights while firing in direct fire mode. The shell abides by gravity, the sights do not. Another poster just had his Wespe knock itself out by firing into a building... Sure we can call it the fog of war, or whatever proverbial saying that comes to mind. However, the fact of the matter is we have armor shooting HE rounds that are taking themselves out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaka Posted November 27, 2000 Share Posted November 27, 2000 "we have armor shooting HE rounds that are taking themselves out!" No, no this is not a problem... there is no real limitation for a tank to shot it's own gun to a target only 3mm way, it's just a question of how mad you are What do you want, a minimal shooting distance like in the older games ? In the heat of a battle, are you sure that you would respect that minimal range ? Currently I like the way CM handles this, to be quite honest it's one of the things that I enjoy much... since when I sow, on my 2nd pbem, my Hummel knock it self and a Daimler out with only one 150mm HE shot. The problem would be, if currently, CM allows the units to fire at targets out of LOS... If that is your case show the movie to MM João Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted November 27, 2000 Share Posted November 27, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tanaka: No, no this is not a problem... there is no real limitation for a tank to shot it's own gun to a target only 3mm way, it's just a question of how mad you are What do you want, a minimal shooting distance like in the older games ? In the heat of a battle, are you sure that you would respect that minimal range ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> But that's not the issue here. What happens is you tell the tank to fire 300 meters away. And the crew hits a wall 2 meters away. Maybe it happens a bit too often in CM, but I'm not bothered. Odd screw ups just add color to the fights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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