reaction, grazing fire, smoke

[elementalwarre]

there've been multiple threads noting that

- TacAI can't know a player's intent

- MG grazing fire isn't really possible

- smoke completely blocks fire

so, how about these 2 commands - reaction and watch direction - and a change in targeting:

command 1: reaction. 4 settings for actions on contact

- attack. fire and maneuver to kill or break target. after contact, continue any prior movement order

- hold. fire at contact. if moving, find, use, and stay in any nearby useful defensive position

- defend. fire at contact. retreat if moving or not in defensible position, otherwise stay put

- observe. fire only to break contact. avoid and break contact if any. maintain observation if possible

these assume the contact is one the unit would currently engage. of course the unit's morale, experience, ammo level, TacAI's target eval, etc matter as always

in general, whenever a unit's tactical goals are -not- necessarily killing enemy units, what i'd like the unit to do may not be what the TacAI currently does. TacAI's default contact behavior seems to be the same as hold. this works in a meeting engagement, full attack, or MLR defense

however, those units may be on recon, or

i may want to conserve some part of my force, or

an attack may be a feint, not pressed home, or

movement rate doesn't always correspond to contact behavior. a unit may be moving fast to break contact, or because it's going for LOS to that FO, or...

-the TacAI cannot know my intent-. thus why i'm interested in this command

command 2: watch direction. aim at and observe that direction, plus of course an arc to each side. works much like rotate. click is watch direction, control-click is watch the area control-clicked. this lets scouts, flankers, and columns observe and react as part of a group vs everyone watching the direction they're moving in. units with slower turrets aren't penalized for a limitation in the command set. this also approximates assigned fields of fire

change in targeting: let a unit target a sound contact as area fire/unobserved fire. specifically this applies -through- smoke, fog, or night, even if the unit's in command of an HQ unit with clear LOS. if a weapon hasn't moved since the start of battle, the accuracy goes up. this is mostly for automatic weapon grazing fire, although i suppose the TacAI could have a vehicle try to use a bow MG to find a target for its cannon

i do -not- know CM's game engine and thus how hard these are. however i'd rather suggest vs assuming everything's too hard

as for micromanagement - BTS has said before that they think improving the TacAI would be substantial work for little gain. until that changes, watching flanks, grazing fire, etc are IMHO plausible actions which are difficult without these changes

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by elementalwarre:

command 2: watch direction. aim at and observe that direction, plus of course an arc to each side. works much like rotate. click is watch direction, control-click is watch the area control-clicked. this lets scouts, flankers, and columns observe and react as part of a group vs everyone watching the direction they're moving in. units with slower turrets aren't penalized for a limitation in the command set. this also approximates assigned fields of fire<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really like this!

Michael

[Bullethead]

Elementalware said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

there've been multiple threads noting that

- TacAI can't know a player's intent

- MG grazing fire isn't really possible

- smoke completely blocks fire<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MG grazing fire works, but only if the MG can fire in the first place. Because it can't fire into or through smoke, this robs the MGs of a lot of their grazing fire potential. So I advocate allowing MGs to area-fire through smoke. Hell, all direct fire units should be able to do this. The lack of such an ability is the biggest realism problem I have with CM.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>command 1: reaction. 4 settings for actions on contact<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think we need commands for the proposed "attack", "hold", and "defend" options. The latter 2 are basically what the AI does by itself anyway. As for "attack", the actions you envision would be carried out over a time span longer than 1 minute. Thus, as is, the player has ample opportunity to give orders with the existing set for this purpose.

However, I think the "observe" option is very desirable. It would be great to have this order available for your OPs, LPs, scout teams, and snipers. I would make it so you couldn't give it to crews, however.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>command 2: watch direction<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a much-needed refinement. In real life, in a defensive position, you assign sectors of fire to each squad and support weapon. They are not supposed to fire in other directions. I find it highly annoying when my undisciplined troops all fire at the first enemy unit that appears, thus revealing my whole position and then being blindsided by other enemies coming up on the flank.

I would not want to see the ability to target sound contact "units", however. 99% of the time at least, there is really nothing there at all. For instance, I often see vehicle sound contacts in the middle of forests where no vehicle can possibly go. The sound contact "unit" you see is just a marker indicating something is making noise within 100-200m or so. I would really be disappointed if my troops started shooting at such phantoms, revealing themselves and wasting ammo. They do that enough already.

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-Bullethead

Visit the brand new Raider Operations message board at www.delphi.com/raiderops

Main site www.historicalgames.bizland.com/index.html

[elementalwarre]

hi bullethead! about your post:

oops, i posted too fast. quite right, MG grazing fire isn't really possible -without LOS-

attack, hold, defend - i almost convinced myself twice that these aren't useful before i finally wrote them down.

this is meant to influence the TacAI during the turn. 60 seconds is an eternity under fire

attack - i'm not sure how attack actions are necessarily more than 1 turn? if a vehicle stops in place on contact, it could get killed there instead of being in the cover it's supposed to have reached. thus why this command says continue after contact. also, if you're going all out to take a position, this allows the implied priority on movement

hold - mostly a placeholder for what the TacAI does now. i'm just fitting it into the reaction command scheme

defend - means shoot back but we don't need this position. this attack is probably too much so don't die or break holding in place, fall back -now-!

why not let crews observe? recon vehicles are a big reason i suggested this. there's a chance the contact hasn't seen them. sticking around to fire back often just causes their puny lifespans

sorry, i didn't write down 3 possible limits for the targeting change

- if watch direction is used, the unit only fires at contacts in that direction

- if reaction is used, the unit only fires at sound contacts when set to attack or hold

- the unit only fires at sound contacts -you- select, so for the computer player the operational AI would decide to fire at sound contacts or not

i agree this still spends ammo like water, but heck, it's grazing fire. see john kettler's thread at http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/006772.html. hey, you posted to it!

[Bullethead]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>attack - i'm not sure how attack actions are necessarily more than 1 turn? if a vehicle stops in place on contact, it could get killed there instead of being in the cover it's supposed to have reached. thus why this command says continue after contact. also, if you're going all out to take a position, this allows the implied priority on movement<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Put yourself in the position of the grunt platoon leader. When you make contact with the enemy, it takes some time to analyze the situation, decide on the appropriate actions to do next, and communicate these orders to your subordinate squads. This time is on the order of 1 minute.

So say this attack order existed. You would issue when NOT in contact now, but expecting to be so at some point during the turn. That's less than 1 minute after contact to decide what to do. So as it stands now, your guys make contact using Move of Sneak orders, and then the turn ends. You now have the opportunity to give further orders based on what you know about the situation at present. This is all a real person in that same situation could do. And it might take several more turns to do a single envelopment, or just shoot it out to a conclusion.

So, the whole action is going to take more than 1 turn. And the existing orders set, and the opportunity to use them, fully cover this type of situation, IMHO.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>defend - means shoot back but we don't need this position. this attack is probably too much so don't die or break holding in place, fall back -now-!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So what's the difference between this and your proposed Observe order?

Even if there is a differnce, however, it runs into the same situation as Attack. By the time your guys have learned enough to realize this attack is too much, the turn will have ended and you can issue new orders anyway.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>why not let crews observe?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because crews aren't supposed to be very useful. Also, their radios just burned up in the wrecked vehicle.

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-Bullethead

Visit the brand new Raider Operations message board at www.delphi.com/raiderops

Main site www.historicalgames.bizland.com/index.html

[elementalwarre]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Put yourself in the position of the grunt platoon leader. When you make contact with the enemy, it takes some time to analyze the situation, decide on the appropriate actions to do next, and communicate these orders to your subordinate squads. This time is on the order of 1 minute.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes, amazing platoon leader if he's cracking orders out instantly. absolutely, the current set is fine for commands after initial contact

that's not the intent of reaction. reaction is not group reaction but each unit's immediate reaction, ie a squad or vehicle. what does each individual unit do when seeing or hearing an enemy unit or being fired on? ok, so it's 'only' up to 60 seconds, but that could be a lot of lead flying by. i see it as standing orders, what you do until some officer figures out something better

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>So what's the difference between this and your proposed Observe order?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

defend means fire at contacts but reverse/withdraw if pressed. ie pull back while still in good order, not after breaking

observe means stay concealed. don't fire unless the opponent fires and/or moves at your position. break contact if any. fire in self-defense, but get away from anyone shooting until you can hide again & observe from the nearest cover/concealment

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Because crews aren't supposed to be very useful. Also, their radios just burned up in the wrecked vehicle.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ah, joke, right? 'hey, all you cav guys, just ditch your vehicles and break out the beer.' sorry, i must be dense today. if you're serious i don't get your point

attack if you're going for better terrain or crushing your opponent's recon

hold if you're on defensible terrain or moving out to defend a point you have

defend if defensible terrain's behind you or you think the opponent force is stronger

that's the idea, anyway - modify how units act on contact until you can give commands

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by elementalwarre:

ah, joke, right? 'hey, all you cav guys, just ditch your vehicles and break out the beer.' sorry, i must be dense today. if you're serious i don't get your point<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I get the feeling that you guys are talking about two seperate and very different things, and if I'm right neither one of you has realized it yet.

I think Bullethead is talking about crews that have already abandoned their vehicles/weapons and Elementalware is talking about crews still in their vehicles, which by the way is non-standard usage for this game and on this board and the root of the confusion...if I'm right about all this.

Hope I haven't made matters worse. I'll butt out now.

Michael

[This message has been edited by Michael emrys (edited 09-19-2000).]

[elementalwarre]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys:

I get the feeling that you guys are talking about two seperate and very different things, and if I'm right neither one of you has realized it yet.

I think Bullethead is talking about crews that have already abandoned their vehicles/weapons and Elementalware is talking about crews still in their vehicles, which by the way is non-standard usage for this game and on this board and the root of the confusion...if I'm right about all this.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

(whack self on forehead) DOH! well of course, any unit that's panicked wouldn't observe worth a damn, not just crews

thanks michael!

maybe a tweak to watch direction: what if the length of the bar from the unit to the pointer tells how much arc to watch? short bar, wide arc. long bar, narrow arc

as always, if TacAI can make a reasonable decision about arc, forget this. otherwise, this could help set overlapping fields of fire

[Bullethead]

EW said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>that's not the intent of reaction. reaction is not group reaction but each unit's immediate reaction, ie a squad or vehicle. what does each individual unit do when seeing or hearing an enemy unit or being fired on? ok, so it's 'only' up to 60 seconds, but that could be a lot of lead flying by. i see it as standing orders, what you do until some officer figures out something better<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And here we come up against what reactions were hardwired into the troops as a result of their realworld training. Military training gets so ingrained that you find yourself doing what you've been taught automatically, despite being scared to death. Only long, bloody experience, rare natural combat ability, or utter panic lets a soldier do something else.

When I was serving, the new rifleman trainee was taught that if you bumped into the enemy and started taking fire, you hit the deck and started returning fire ASAP. I believe this reaction is taught because it's the best when you're ambushed and works quite well in most other situations. The theory is you refuse to be suppressed and gain fire superiority by suppressing the badguys, even if they got off the first shot.

If there's something else you should be doing instead, you have sergeants and lieutenants to tell you that. In fact, part of the reason you're trained to act this way is to buy time for your bosses to figure out what the Hell's going on and come up with a plan. Sure, a lot of lead is flying in this period, but that's why you were issued a weapon

I'm not certain, but I think this doctrine has been in place a long time, including WW2. In any case, CM squads exhibit this behavior, and I find it quite realistic. I don't think it would be realistic to alter the basic reactions of units to firefights. If you did, then IMHO you'd have to limit which units could have different reactions set, based either on experience or special training. But I also think this whole thing is unnecessary because the bonuses that higher experience levels give you in combat abstract this to an adequate degree of realism.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>ah, joke, right? 'hey, all you cav guys, just ditch your vehicles and break out the beer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Like Michael said, I was talking about bailed crews. BTS's intention is to prevent these units from being particularly useful. IMHO, the best use for such a crew is as a scout team or OP. However, because in their homeless state they are short some key mission equipment, and are not primarily infantrymen anyway, being able to use crews effectively this way is rather gamey. So if BTS ever gives us an "observe" order for OPs and scouts, I would recommend that this order not be available to bailed crews.

------------------

-Bullethead

Visit the brand new Raider Operations message board at www.delphi.com/raiderops

Main site www.historicalgames.bizland.com/index.html

[This message has been edited by Bullethead (edited 09-19-2000).]

[elementalwarre]

well, yeah. i hope trainees are still taught to drop and return fire! however:

- CM models units, not individuals. presumably the unit commander is a noncom or officer with a clue. if they retain control, they can get the unit to do something other than take cover. would this always take up to a minute?

- reaction is about contact in general, ie sound or visual contact as well. sorry if there's a terminology difference. when i write contact i mean in CM terms. might be sound or visual instead of taking fire

- experience matters, of course. it might be useful to see an equivalent of command delay before reaction takes effect. as for bonuses, sure, but again this isn't only about taking fire

say i send a platoon out on aggressive recon. "find'em and fix'em, we're coming up behind you."

that's a lot different than being on the defensive, worn from the last attack, knowing they're coming back but not where. 'find them, but COME BACK! i need every rifle when they hit'

thanks for your patience! closest i've been to war is riots, which is far closer than i ever want to be again so i appreciate your comments!

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by elementalwarre:

well, yeah. i hope trainees are still taught to drop and return fire! however:

- CM models units, not individuals. presumably the unit commander is a noncom or officer with a clue. if they retain control, they can get the unit to do something other than take cover. would this always take up to a minute?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In a word, yes. First of all, it seems to me relatively rare for an ambush to get sprung at the very outset of a turn. Somebody is going to have to walk into it and that takes some time.

Secondly, it may take *quite* a few seconds for whoever is in charge (it might be the second or even third in command if the guys ahead of him in the chain of command have been hit) to figure out the situation, decide what has to be done, and *then* get the word to everybody else. A firefight is a noisy, confusing, environment in which to try to communicate. Guys on the ground trying to dodge bullets and return fire may not be watching the sergeant.

Thirdly, it may take a while before the average rifleman, who fully occupied staying out of the way of high velocity metal objects, is convinced that doing anything besides developing a more intimate relationship to Mater Terra is a good idea.

I think BTS is already being generous in allowing us to intervene in the action every minute. From the time the game was first discussed, and several times since, I have mentioned my own belief that a WW II game at this scale should have 5-minute turns. But that's just my take on it.

Michael

[elementalwarre]

ah, i'm only saying up to a minute because we're talking about a turn. that means 1-60 seconds. if i implied otherwise, i did not intend to and have been fully aware that we're talking about 1-60 seconds

when i say unit, i mean squad/team/vehicle, not platoon or higher. i -agree- officer and noncom commands take time. i -agree- the 1 minute command abstraction is reasonable

however, reaction is about standing orders, what each soldier does -before- they get specific orders. i mentioned noncoms and officers for their morale effect, -not- for any commands they might give

i'm not convinced that any unit, conscript to elite, will take up to a minute to take more than reflexive action - trained reflex, but still - on a contact, sound, visual or incoming fire

if that's how units actually react i must be an alien. the only time i've been in anything like a firefight, others said i started to flank and fire aimed bursts within seconds. are we saying i - aka a civilian with -no- military training, then or now - reacted faster than even elite troops in CM? be serious. my ego's not -that- big

nonetheless, if that's the case then ok, forget the others, only observe makes sense

hmm. you know, being an alien -would- explain other behaviors

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by elementalwarre:

i'm not convinced that any unit, conscript to elite, will take up to a minute to take more than reflexive action - trained reflex, but still - on a contact, sound, visual or incoming fire<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is handled in the game by the TacAI. What I hear you saying is that you want a player facility to reprogram the TacAI for your units.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>if that's how units actually react i must be an alien. the only time i've been in anything like a firefight, others said i started to flank and fire aimed bursts within seconds. are we saying i - aka a civilian with -no- military training, then or now - reacted faster than even elite troops in CM? be serious. my ego's not -that- big <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you talking about paint balling? Taking actual lethal fire in combat might be a bit different; certainly a lot noisier and more confusing.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>hmm. you know, being an alien -would- explain other behaviors <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Michael

[This message has been edited by Michael emrys (edited 09-22-2000).]

[elementalwarre]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>What I hear you saying is that you want a player facility to reprogram the TacAI for your units

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

as little as possible but yes. influence might be closer to my intent

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Are you talking about paint balling? Taking actual lethal fire in combat might be a bit different; certainly a lot noisier and more confusing<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i wish. no. paintball is fun, safe, and pain-free, relatively. i'd never compare paintball to even a squad-level firefight

rioting between sunnis and shiites in saudi arabia after the shah of iran was overthrown. if that only reminds you of LA riots or the intifadeh - put it this way. the last time saudi cops stopped & searched traffic while i was living there, 9 of 10 vehicles had long arms

during the riots, seemed like they were all in use

not anything i care to do again. i'm a civilian and happy to be

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by elementalwarre:

i wish. no. paintball is fun, safe, and pain-free, relatively. i'd never compare paintball to even a squad-level firefight

rioting between sunnis and shiites in saudi arabia after the shah of iran was overthrown. if that only reminds you of LA riots or the intifadeh - put it this way. the last time saudi cops stopped & searched traffic while i was living there, 9 of 10 vehicles had long arms

during the riots, seemed like they were all in use

not anything i care to do again. i'm a civilian and happy to be<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow! Interesting tale. If you ever care to expand on it, drop me a line.

Michael