1.1 woes

[Guest Captitalistdoginchina]

I fired up my first pbem games last night using 1.1 beta. I had received my 2 setups and was making my unit placements when CM locked up. Most unusual because it never locks up on me. Anyway after a re-boot i set to work again on my unit placement - but after about 10 to 15 minutes it locked again - i could move the mouse but other than that the computer had frozen - another Ctrl Alt Del......this went on for 1 hour, lock up after lock up until i gave up. I tried opening both setups but it locked no matter which file i opened.

I have 2 seperate installations of CM, one is at v1.05 with all the mods and maddog modpacks, it runs like a dream. The other is a seperate installation in a seperate directory updated to 1.1 beta, the software installation is straight from the disk with no mods. Does anyone else have this problem with the beta patch?

I am running a Athlon T Bird 900 with 256MB Ram and a Ge-force 2 GTS w/64mb.

I would welcome any suggestions, i do not understand how one installation can work fine but the other will not - unless of course there are some issues with the 1.1 patch.

To my opponents in the RD Tournament round 3 bear with me on this - we cannot start these games using 1.05, the rules state 1.1 must be used. I played 13 pbem games last night using 1.05 without a single problem, but once i use the 1.1 it locks.

CDIC

Can BTS send a field service team out to take a look ? Prawn Crackers and Chop Suey are on me !!

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"Death solves all problems - no man no problem"

J.V.Stalin, 1918

[Subvet]

I don't know what to tell you as far as your lock up problems. I haven't had that happen at all with 1.1. Maybe try putting your 1.1 version in the same directory as your 1.05? This could help narrow it down. If that doesn't work maybe try downloading 1.1 again. Perhaps it was corrupted in your download.

[phil stanbridge]

Hey that is very interesting!! I have serious lockups with it as well and guess what - I am using a TB900 with 256meg Ram and a Geforce2 MX. Maybe this is a Thunderbird issue??? BTS??

[Johnno]

Hey guys to my recollection Madmatt in his readme (he said "READ THIS FIRST BEFORE YOU DOWNLOAD") stated that there may or may not be any issues with Ge Force cards. I'm not certain if it was Madmatt mind you, but I do recall seeing a minor warning about it before I downloaded. I am lucky, I have a Athlon 700 with Ge Force card and have had no problems.

Johnno

[Guest KwazyDog]

I am running the exact same system as Cap up there, and I havnt had a lock up in CM at all with 1.1, so i dont think its CM related to be honest.

I did have some lock ups when I first got my Thunderbird though that turned out to be heat related. Do you know what temp you system is running at *whilst* playing CM Cap?

Dan

[phil stanbridge]

I read about problems with the beta drivers but I wasn't aware of anything else. Believe me, I have tried everything I can think of to get a stable game.

Kwazydog, I can't see how it could be a heat issue with my machine because I have tested it from a cold boot situation when the machine has been off all day. But as a matter of interest, how can you tell what temperature it is running at?

[This message has been edited by phil stanbridge (edited 12-15-2000).]

[Nabla]

I've been following these lockup discussions with great interest, since I am having serious lockup problems myself. I'm running HP Omnibook 6000 with ATI Mobility graphics card.

Since other people with ATI Mobility graphics card were having similar problems, I used to think that this was an ATI-specific problem. However, after following these discussions for a while I don't think this is the case.

The thing that puzzles me is why are these lockups so common now with different hardware components. Since I'm not a heavy gamer, but mostly play only CM, I don't know whether such lockups are common among 3D-games. If they are, then maybe it is a general problem with the operating system (Windows) or hardware (Intel / motherboards / cooling).

However, if lockups are not common among 3D-games, then maybe there is something that could be changed in CM to improve the situation. The problem is currently that we don't know the smallest common denominator, or even whether there is one.

We users are somewhat helpless in the situation, since we are restricted to our own hardware specification and do not have access to source code. So this is a humble request towards BTS to clarify the situation.

[Guest KwazyDog]

Hi Phil,

You can usually tell your temperature through your systems bios. You should have recieved a manual with your system that should tell you how to enter the bios and check the temperature (though please by careful not to change any settings in there ).

Now, there is something else I have just thought of which can cause problems with Thurderbird chips, especially with systems that use a Geforce 2. Technically you should be running your system with that setup (Thunderbird *and* GTS) with no less than a 300 watt power supply. I had a friend whom was having all manner of problems with his system in games and as soon as he upgraded to a 300 watt supply they went away.

Now, Im not saying these will be sure fixes, but I think they would be options to explore On top of these, drivers for your video card *and* you motherboards device drivers and bios are very important to have up to date.

Ill be honest guys, I dont think it is CM that is causing the lock ups, because I know of several people running on Thunderbird systems with no problems at all. When the 1.1 beta crashes (due to a bug, etc) it is designed to general an error log, and will contain the type of error that caused the crash. What it sounds like you guys are having is a system lock up, where no error is generated by CM. This is because CM locked up *before* it could generate this log.

What I would like to get from you guys though are complete system specs, right down to motherboard brands and drivers you guys are using. The only thing I can think of here that *may* be a CM problem is if CM is conflicting with a certain brand of motherboard (though unlikely) or a certain version of driver (possible).

Thanks Guys, hopefully we can get you up and running with no problems

Dan

[Nabla]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KwazyDog:

What I would like to get from you guys though are complete system specs, right down to motherboard brands and drivers you guys are using. The only thing I can think of here that *may* be a CM problem is if CM is conflicting with a certain brand of motherboard (though unlikely) or a certain version of driver (possible).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could we start a CM lockup analysis thread, where you could post an opening message containing a template for lockup system reports. This way we could see the breadth of the problem, and also share ideas of how to pinpoint the problem and solve it. (I could of course start the thread myself, but oou probably know better what such a template should contain).

[Guest KwazyDog]

What I will do Nabla is pass this thread onto Matt whom is handling the beta bug reports and ask him to make a few comments here. I will also pass this thread onto Charles...

Dan

[phil stanbridge]

Okay... System specs:

TB 900mhz

256MB PC100

Microstar motherboard with AMD chipset

DVD 16x

IDE CDRW 8x4x32

nVidia GeForce2 MX 32Mb AGP Video Card (No TV Out)

Creative Sound Blaster PCI Live! 1024 OEM

Microsoft Windows ME

DirectX 8

Nvidia drivers as specified in readme, can't remember exact version, but they are the ones that are stable.

[Guest KwazyDog]

I will throw my system specs in here for a comparison, as CM runs without a problem on my system.

T'bird 900

Microstar 6330 Motherboard

Asus Geforce 2

Sound Blaster Live

DirectX 8

Windows ME

Its a strange one Phil thats for sure, our system specs are almost excatly the same, but I havnt experience a lock up since I solved my heat issues.

There is a utility that comes with the MS boards on a CD that will allow you to check your heat whilst running CM (it runs in the task bar). I found my lock ups started when I reached around 45 decrees celcius, and were almost certain once I reched 50.

The process should be up to *heat* after around 10 to 15mins worth of game time, which is when I started to noticed my lock ups. Sometimes I had graphics glitches just before my lock ups. This probably isnt your problem Phil, but I think it would be worth checking just so it can be ruled out...

Dan

[This message has been edited by KwazyDog (edited 12-15-2000).]

[phil stanbridge]

Hmmm. Thanks for all that. I have to say, I do get occasional glitches with the graphics but I can get round them by alt-tabbing. Makes me wonder if it is heat related? I know TB's run hot.

[Guest KwazyDog]

They do, very unfortuantely. I have 2 extra fans in my system just in an attempt to keep it cool enough to run wel.

On the good side though the compile a CM turn 2 to 3 times faster that an equivilently clocked Pentium from the experiments I have done in the past

Dan

[phil stanbridge]

Thanks for all your help Dan. I have two fans in my unit. One of my original reasons for going for a full tower was so that it dispersed the heat better. I will see tonight if I have this utility on my cd. I don't even remember seeing a cd to be honest but I'm sure it's there somewhere.

[Nabla]

Now this is interesting. I also noticed last week that my notebook seems to be very heated when running CM, and that when I run CM with the notebook running on battery it does not lock up that easily. I have to run more tests to confirm this, but this would make some sense since I think that my notebook runs 500MHz when on battery and 700MHz otherwise.

There's obviously nothing you guys can do about poorly ventilated processors, but why do these problems turn up with just CM? I have not been able to get the notebook to lock under any other circumstances. Is the processor performing some heavy computations even when the battlescene is stationary? I mean, my laptop may freeze even if I just leave the CM running by itself for a while (with no input).

[phil stanbridge]

Nabla, do you have any form of power management enabled either at BIOS level or O/S level? I'm guessing you do.

I would be tempted to disable this. I have found that APM kicks in and cocks up, to put it bluntly.

[Guest Captitalistdoginchina]

Guys,

I have a Asus A7V motherboard and i did install the heat sensor/thermocouple under the CPU during the assembly, i installed an additional chassis fan as well as a heavy duty CPU fan - not because of heat problems but because i intended to overclock my CPU later. The Asus mainboard software utility ran for 3 months and all the temperatures were fine when playing games for hours on end so i deleted the utility once i knew all the temps were stable.

I really do not think that this is a hardware or driver problem - i can play CM online for 8 hours a day (PBEM with MSN chat) without turning it off (Yes i have) without a single hiccup - but as soon as i open the same game with 1.1 it locks. Now since my first post i have not tried it again but i will do so again tonight to see what happens, i will also try your suggestion to open 1.1 from within my original installation with all the mods and so on to see what happens.

I have located the error log file and i shall be e-mailing that over to Matt soon.

Thanks for all the suggestions, ill check back in later.

BTW Dan, i specified my PC with a 400w power supply to avoid the problems you mentioned I also updated my motherboard Bios some months ago together with the N'vidia 6.31 drivers. I am using Win 98 and direct x 7a.

The thing to remember here is that my CM at 1.05 runs like a dream - same system, same computer, same hardware, same resolution, same drivers.

CDIC

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"Death solves all problems - no man no problem"

J.V.Stalin, 1918

[phil stanbridge]

Roger that, my 1.05 runs fine too. No problems at all. It is only the beta that I'm experiencing lockups with.

[Guest KwazyDog]

Hi Guys

When I found my heat problems, CM was the *only* game that was cuasing problems. I think this is becuase it using a lot of mathimatical calculations, which really put a strain on the CPU. Nabala, the fact that CM will lock up if you walk away from your system does sound very suspicious, that was happening on my system too when I left CM running. It would last for about 15 mins in general.

Im not saying heat is the problem guys, but I do know it causef me all type of problem in CM until I figured it out 2 weeks later. I had to put a fan in my system using cable ties blowing *across* the heatsink in an attempt to cool it further, and the fan on my processor is *supposed* to be one of the best for cooling

The other thing which can cause this type of lock up is as I mentioed above, drivers. Matt know a little more about this than myself, and Ill get him to make a mention of it if he has the time.

I do admit guys, the fact that you are just having lock ups in 1.1 is odd. I have asked Charles a couple of questions about this to see if we can tie it down a little further. Remember though, I have pretty much the same system as you guys and havnt ever had a lock up in 1.1, so Im thinking odd are it is system or driver related. Hopefully we will get to the bottom of it either way though!

[This message has been edited by KwazyDog (edited 12-15-2000).]

[Guest Madmatt]

Please try with the brand new Public Beta build 22 patch and see if the lockups continue.

If you do then be sure to read all the troubleshooting information in the How-To Guide, pay particular attention to the section about video drivers. If you still have lockups then follow the directions you will find in the Bug Report Form located in the Read Me folder. Thanks!

Madmatt

[This message has been edited by Madmatt (edited 12-16-2000).]

[Guest Captitalistdoginchina]

This morning i tried again - same setup file and after placing 3 units it locked up. So i downloaded the 1.1 22 patch and tried again - hey presto, i finished both setups without a lockup. Just to make sure i fired up Eseldorf from the disk and played it for almost 2 hours and no lockups. Charles must have made some kind of adjustment....???

I was about to change my video card drivers...but i guess there is no need now.

I am off to Australia tomorrow - merry xmas everyone.

CDIC

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"Death solves all problems - no man no problem"

J.V.Stalin, 1918

[phil stanbridge]

I have not been so fortunate.. I managed to get part way through a battle against the AI and thought I had the problem solved until I went up against a colleague via tcp. Same issues for me. Occasional sporadic lockups. No obvious pattern. Like trying to find a needle in a haystack - very frustrating.

Clutching at straws I decided to format my drive and reinstall from scratch. Problemo.... Arse.. I've lost my ME serial number.. Bummer. Back to 98 for the time being. So here I am, 98 SE back on my new AthlonTB and I hope to install CM shortly with the patch. I won't have anything else on my machine but CM and DX8, to avoid any software implications. Of course, I still have to download the relevant drivers so I guess I'll be a while yet.

One thing of interest, my machine is running at a constant 49 degrees. Quite hot I believe but official statement from AMD is that this is way below the danger levels.

Any feedback, anyone??

[Guest KwazyDog]

Hi Guys,

Cap, glad that fixed your problems It has been mentioned in discussions behind the scenes about this that there is a small chance the debug code could have been causeing issues with the odd system, and it appears changes in the code must have solved your problems

Phil, I guess that the 49 is in celcius? This is a hard call, becuase each system is different *but* my system was starting to develop lock ups at around that figure. The thing is, if you system is running at 49 degrees standard, once you start to run CM you could expect that figure to just maybe another 5 or 6 degrees. This takes you up to around 54-55 which for me was a definate lock up.

Now seeing you were only having problems in the new beta and not 1.05 Im not still 100% sure that heat is a problem, but I can tell you that that temperature on my system would have been a defiante problem. My system may have been more sensitive to heat though.

One thing to try which is reasonably easy and seems to cool your system down a few degrees (well, did in my case) is to take the side case of off and point a large home fan in there. Load off the CD the system monitoring software (or download from www.msi.com.tw) and keep an eye on your temperature. Start playing CM, and drop out every couple of minutes to check the temp again. This way you should be able to see if the lock ups are happening at any particular temperature.

If it appears not to be heat though, Im thinking drivers will be the next to look at. If you are reinstalling Phil, Id check to make sure you have the latest VIA chipset drivers too, over att http://www.viatech.com/ .

Hopefully we are getting to the bottom of it Phil

Dan