Infantry Tac-AI in bocage - utterly stupied

[Rebane]

Hello

I am in a "alerted" state and cannot do search therefore...

Maybe it is covered before, BUT infantry behind the bocage when discovered by enemy tank, or more likely blows cover by opening up the fire against tank commander 30 meters away, runs under fire THROUGH bocage to the other side where the enemy tanks are NOT the other side where it would be protected by BOCAGE.

Due to this behaviour infantry units are standing erect, taking fire till they die trying to run throug bocage.

This is totally illogical.

And another minor thing:

Infantry while sneaking STOPS even when enemy tank fires at them from 300 meters ie. is following sneak order - move to contact. Is there any possibility to tweak the sneak order so that "move to contact" is implemented only in case of soft targets and AFV-s what the infantry REALLY CAN damage.

Waiting for the replies.

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In the flat field I get bored...

[coralsaw]

Rebane,

I can't really comment on the first issue, haven't seen it happen. In all cases, infantry retreated normally, and not through the bocage.

You are saying that they blow cover @30 meters. If you hide them, they won't. On the other hand. 30 meters is within their reach. They can throw a grenade or faust the tank and kill it. Certainly normal behaviour.

Maybe the troops were green an panicked, so they ran towards the enemy by mistake?

Regarding your second point, I think that a squad that takes fire, no matter what fire, should stop and hit the dirt. Don't forget that returning fire as well, even to a tank, is effective, as it makes the tank button up and so worsens its situational awareness.

I can't see how a commander can give the floowing order to troops:

"Now, sneak through the woods. If a tank fires at you, don't hit the dirt but continue onwards."

Regards

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My squads are regular, must be the fibre in the musli...

[Rebane]

Thanks for reply

Probably You are right about the sneak issue.

But the fist point really happened and twice in the same scenario. Maybe it is the issue WHERE exactly the troops are, I placed the squad on spot where computer showed the bocage would begin, so they were NOT INSIDE the bocage but rather behind it. If they are right behind the bocage, they won`t see a thing through the bocage.

And people have adviced to place the troops on spot where the bogace begins, not inside of it, so they have cover, concealment and los through it.

But when under fire they try to go throgh the bocage to other side probably cause in the other side there are some woods and in the same side there is flat field.

I came up with this theory.

But anyway this should not be so.

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In the flat field I get bored...

[Silver Stars]

not much to say on the subject, other then I have the same problem.But idiotic death always follows my men everywhere so.....

But i will say, great signature....WWII gaming needs more Bauhaus references....teehee

[David Aitken]

If you want your men to hide behind a hedge or wall, make sure they're not right up against it. The graphical representation is not always exactly where the underlying code assumes the barrier to be, so if your men are up against it they might end up technically IN it, and if they're IN the hedge/wall the TacAI will not distinguish between front or back. Provided they are within a few yards of the barrier, they will benefit from the cover it offers (being IN a wall offers no cover).

Bocage in CM is generally not good cover. The enemy can see your men for maybe 10 or 20 yards behind it, and it does not offer much protection. The exception is if you are defending and your men are dug in behind – benefiting from the cover of their foxhole and the concealment of the bocage.

David

[Rebane]

Many thanks David!

That really made the thing clear for me.

Thanks again, I had the whole wrong impression about bocage.

PS. I am glad there are other Bauhaus fans as well

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In the flat field I get bored...

[Juardis]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken:

Bocage in CM is generally not good cover. The enemy can see your men for maybe 10 or 20 yards behind it, and it does not offer much protection. The exception is if you are defending and your men are dug in behind – benefiting from the cover of their foxhole and the concealment of the bocage.

David

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You sure about that? I setup a hotseat QB with a flat map and bocage only. I was specifically trying to determine what you can and cannot see with bocage. My observations are:

1) If you're hiding in bocage, you will not be spotted unless you fire or move.

2) Even if you do fire or move, you will not be spotted easily. A unit must have a LOS to your spot. And having a LOS into a spot of bocage is not a given. Sound contacts appear and disappear a lot in bocage.

3) If you're at an angle of greater than 30-45 degrees, you will not be spotted or be able to target anything beyond that arc, regardless of what you are doing in the bocage.

4) YOU CANNOT SEE THROUGH BOCAGE

5) It takes a long time (one turn) to run through bocage and you tire very rapidly when doing so. If you move through, you can double or triple the amount of time and if you sneak....well, hope it's a long battle.

So IMHO, bocage is excellent cover for concealment, not so great for protection. The problem arises when you are indeed spotted and taking fire. Getting out of the bocage takes a while and you may die before doing so. And if the nearest cover takes you into enemy fire, then the TAC-AI will send you there.

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Jeff Abbott

[David Aitken]

Juardis wrote:

> 4) YOU CANNOT SEE THROUGH BOCAGE

If you're close up to bocage you can see through it, and if you're far away you can see things immediately behind it, especially if they're moving. Of course, the visual permeability of bocage was changed in a patch, so it's currently different from what it was in the original release.

David

[Spook]

Not to get on your case specifically, Juardis, but I think some things need clarification based on my own experience with a "bocage test scenario" I created.

1) If you're hiding in bocage, you will not be spotted unless you fire or move.

I think it needs to be dilineated on whether or not you're talking of hiding IN vs. hiding BEHIND bocage. In my own bocage test scenario, I would sometimes spot, pre-game, units hiding IN the bocage hedge instead of behind it. Usually, though, per your point, when a unit starts behind bocage, it will not be spotted until it fires or moves (and even then, is not easily ID'ed).

2) Even if you do fire or move, you will not be spotted easily. A unit must have a LOS to your spot. And having a LOS into a spot of bocage is not a given. Sound contacts appear and disappear a lot in bocage.

A targeted unit will likely be able to "spot back" & fire on who fires at it through bocage. But often, it's just as you say.

3) If you're at an angle of greater than 30-45 degrees, you will not be spotted or be able to target anything beyond that arc, regardless of what you are doing in the bocage.

That's often the case. Though in my own test scenario, I've also found that the "spotting arc" isn't always SYMMETRIC to the front direction of the unit. Sometimes it can spot better in one arc direction instead of the other. I can't explain why, and this MIGHT be intentional as a BTS bocage design effect.

4) YOU CANNOT SEE THROUGH BOCAGE

Yes you can, though not consistently. Units can be as far back as 10-15 meters from a bocage hedge and still spot through to the other side (and be spotted). But per the earlier discussion, getting the initial "spotting" is not easily done.

5) It takes a long time (one turn) to run through bocage and you tire very rapidly when doing so. If you move through, you can double or triple the amount of time and if you sneak....well, hope it's a long battle.

I've repeatedly timed units on the moment they start running INTO the bocage to when they get to the other side. It's not always the same, but often, I've seen units get through in 25 seconds with a "run" command.

So IMHO, bocage is excellent cover for concealment, not so great for protection. The problem arises when you are indeed spotted and taking fire. Getting out of the bocage takes a while and you may die before doing so. And if the nearest cover takes you into enemy fire, then the TAC-AI will send you there.

In balance, much of this is true. As bocage isn't a "regional" terrain cover like woods or crop fields or buildings, a unit that gets "skittish" (alerted/cautious/panicked) may run to get INTO the bocage, even TOWARDS an enemy unit firing on it, if the boacage is the closest "cover". Units that break or rout will strive more to move directly away from enemy units, even if still moving in the open.

But being BEHIND bocage is actually pretty good fire protection, reducing small arms fire to 22% effectiveness. I think that being IN bocage reduces only to 56% effectiveness instead, but can't confirm now. The effect that bocage plays in reducing direct HE fire is unknown to me now.

[jshandorf]

The only problem I have with the bocage is when a unit comes under fire and tries to run THROUGH the bocage to get to the other side since there is cover like a forest or scattered trees. This is absurd. Especially when all the unit has to do is fall back and they will be outside of LOS.

I think BTS has to incorporate LOS into untis AI when they are seeking cover. I notice that vehicles move out of LOS but infantry doesn't do that. They look for cover, therefore you get these suicidal actions.

Jeff