I swear, it seems the Strategy genre community won't break down and do a 3D game.

[Guest Ol' Blood & Guts]

I don't know if you all are familiar of Blizzard's Warcraft III development, but a while back their camera view was one that was "over-the-shoulder", which was very similar to CM's view #2. Now I've learned that they've swithched the camera view to a more overhead, isometric view, which is probably in between CM's #4 and #5 view.

It's ashame too, the lower view looked great, now they've ruined it with this higher view.

So what is it with the RTS, RPG, and RPS gamers that they can't comprehend a 3D world?

------------------

"Why don't we say that we took this one chance, and fought!"

"Stupid humans. Hahahahahahaha!"

--from the film Battlefield Earth

[Guest Big Fat Guy]

I think it has a lot more to do with game companies milking old engines than it does the gamers not wanting, understanding, or being able to handle 3-D.

The main problem is that 3-D needs some major cpu cycles to handle 3-D with loads of units in real time. The ex-AOE designer has a 3-D engine that looks pretty cool, and it runs in real time, a true revolution in the making me thinks.

[iggi]

Dark Reign 2 beta is open at <A HREF="http://www.gamespot.com/betacenter/darkreign2/index.html">Gamespot<A>.

DR2 is 3D. You can rotate your view any way you like, over the shoulder or overhead, your choice.

<A HREF="http://www.gamespot.com/features/redalert2_pre/">Red Alert2<A> will not be in 3D. It should be released in Nov. Some might say they are milking the old engine. I don't necessarialy think so. If the game plays well with a fast 2D engine, I'm all for it. I'm hoping to get into the DR2 Beta. I hope DR2's 3D will increase gameplay. Having 3D does not gaurantee gameplay in a strategy game. We'll see. One of the reasons that players like myself do not like 3D in real time is because it can be disorientating. Therefore you need a very good interface to work in a more complicated 3D environment.

[Lee]

Don't forget, a RTS game where you have to move the camera regularly

to see what is going on is a very bad idea. Because one of the

biggest problems with RTS games is that the player is already overloaded

with things to do in a real-time environment and doesn't have time

in the heat of battle to be moving cameras around to keep his

units in view.

That's one of the major flaws of Force Commander, you have to

move the camera around all the time to keep you units in view if

they are in canyons or valleys and such. It's very annoying.

Maybe in WC III they realized this and tried to give a view that

shows you all you need to see without panning all over the place.

This is one of the GREAT things about games like Jagged Alliance

that are turn-based. You are not so rushed all the time. Most RTS

games degenerate into click fests to see who can givew out orders

faster in the midst of frantic action with units running all over.

Hardly what I would call a good test of strategic and tactical

ability.

If I want to play a game where reflexes and speed of thought are

critical then I'll go play some more Quake II, Action Quake or

Rainbow 6.

[Guest Ol' Blood & Guts]

iggi,

You're not doing the HTML code correctly here. No offense, but just some constructive criticism.

The method is then with the word or phrase you want and then end it off with the

Like this...........

At CMHQ you can find the latest developments for BTS' Combat Mission.

Use the edit feature for this post to see the code.

------------------

"Why don't we say that we took this one chance, and fought!"

"Stupid humans. Hahahahahahaha!"

--from the film Battlefield Earth

[This message has been edited by Ol' Blood & Guts (edited 05-07-2000).]

[Eichmann2]

2D is dead now- PUBLISHERS want to continuially churn out old code purely from a commericial point of view. Red Alert2 ? zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...........

[109 Gustav]

Actually, there are two 5-star, fully 3D strategy games: Myth, the fallen Lords and Myth II soulblighter. The camera is in some ways better than CM's and units are fully 3D as well. They are great games, and I played them both extensively before I discovered the CM demo.

------------------

There is nothing certain about war except that one side won't win.

-Ian Hamilton 1920

[Guest tom w]

I agree completely

Myth II's 3D game play BLOWS the doors off anything else

if you want an RTS 3D stratedgy game you must check out

Myth or Myth II.

I'm not sure if these games are available on a wintel PC or Not.?

The problem with Myth is that it does not have tanks (Bummer) the game has the PERFECT engine for tanks, but instead there is magic and preists that heal and things like that. BUT there are little demolition dwarf's that are like sappers that lay demoliton charges and then you have them throw what looks like a

moletov cocktain (flaming thing) at the satchel charges they

just laid then they WHOLE area where they laid them all goes up like firecrackers on the Forth of July. VERY entertaining!

But sadly no tanks.. and too much magic and special abilities

like these magical things that use Lightening as a weapon, Its like the 88 mm king Tiger unit of the Myth II

any way Myth II does indeed set the Standard for 3D game play in an RTS stratedgy game. The bowman that shot the Flaming

arrows in Myth II are VERY cool and deadly, if firing from and

elevated position.

Now, if the Myth II game engine and the Combat Mission game engine could just mate and have babies (we only need ONE baby) we would all think we had Died and gone to 3D, RTS/Simove, WW II, tank battle, video stratedgy game heaven!

You owe it to your self to check out Myth II Soulblighter if you have not seen this 3D RTS game, it is VERY well done.

here's at review :

http://www.wigglefish.com/zine/gaming/reviews/mythiidemo.html

YES !

Check this out

Plugin for WWII soldiers in the Myth II game engine:

http://www.bungie.com/corporate/press/fear.shtml

http://www.clanplaid.net/misc/recon/

CHECK out these screen shots, you have NEVER seen anything

like this before:

http://www.clanplaid.net/misc/recon/

(watch out though, there is ALOT of blood!)

-tom w

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 109 Gustav:

Actually, there are two 5-star, fully 3D strategy games: Myth, the fallen Lords and Myth II soulblighter. The camera is in some ways better than CM's and units are fully 3D as well. They are great games, and I played them both extensively before I discovered the CM demo.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Guest tom w]

Myth II

WW II Plugin (does this work?)

WWII: Recon highlights the power of the Myth II tools

and the talent of Myth mapmakers

CHICAGO-April 16, 1999-An exceptional plugin for Myth II:

Soulblighter has been eating up the bandwidth recently on

bungie.net. This ambitious and cleanly executed third-party plugin,

named WWII: Recon, provides Myth II players with an exciting

variant on gameplay and demonstrates the power of the editing

tools to alter the Myth world and extend the game's replayability.

WWII: Recon places the player on a Myth-like map populated with

World War II-era soldiers. Each soldier carries a rifle, and has two

basic attacks: firing at the enemy or using the bayonet at close

range. However, they can also pick up medical kits and three

types of grenades: normal, incendiary, and rocket-propelled.

Finally, the addition of slow-moving, long-range Field Cannons

allow the player to shell the enemy from a distance and lay down

suppression fire: "maybe hiding all of our men behind the same

tree was a 'bad' idea."

Recon substantially changes the flavor of a Myth game. In Myth

there are a variety of troop types who each specialize in one or

two kinds of attacks, while Recon offers one troop type, each of

whom can execute a wide variety of attacks. In addition, the

focus is on ranged combat instead of melee.

Recon is a multiplayer map with four variants: "S-2", a two-team

map, "S-4", a four team map, "Elimination", a twelve-player game

where each player controls one soldier with an obscured

overhead map, and "Patrol", a twelve-player game where each

player controls three soldiers.

Santa's Head, a member of the esteemed bungie.net Order Clan

Plaid created the plugin with the assistance of Ripp of the Vista

Myth Map Cartel. Recon was made with Fear and Loathing, the

gonzo tool set that shipped with Myth II: Soulblighter, and a

third-party extractor for modifying units called Amber. The

source code for Bungie's own extractor will be released to the

public shortly.

This kind of plugin was exactly what the Myth II tools were

intended to inspire, and is an excellent sign that Myth mapmakers

are taking this game world in fascinating new directions. WWII:

Recon can be found at www.clanplaid.net/misc/recon/ and is

mirrored elsewhere on the net.

[Guest tom w]

Here it is Myth II

With TANKS!! now this is NEW

Steve have you seen this yet?

(OK its new to ME!)

http://www.clanplaid.net/misc/titans/index.html

World War II: Titans

The long awaited sequel to Recon. Complete with Tanks and vastly

improved strategic planning with the included strategy map and

overhead.

Download | Manual | Preview

Also Included:

World War II: Mythical Solos by Soulsbane -

You thought that netplay was all the World War Series offered?

Yeah right! Soulsbane, with the help of Conner and Santa's Head has

converted the Myth II solo levels to the World War Series. So get out

there and fight for your country!

World War II: Units Plugin

The plugin that makes everything work. It includes all the sounds and

graphics used in Titans and the Mythical Solos, and is the basis of

the future third party additions to the series. It also transforms any

Myth map into a World War map. Put soldiers on I'll Dance on your

Grave? You bet!

About World War II: Titans

Strategy Enhancements -

Do you ever have problems telling

players where to go when you are

captain? Never again! The Titans

overhead (at right) has coordinates

that you can use to tell your teamates

where to go, or note where you have

dropped landmines.

Also available is a printable World War

II: Titans Strategy Map. This allows you

to have it available for reference while

playing. It features the same

coordinates as the overhead, but also

includes strategic positions and contour

lines (elevation).

Improved/Added Weapons -

With the addition of the Flamethrower, Shotgun, Claymores, Land

Mines and several other new toys, your options for destruction have

been expanded beyond your wildest dreams, and let's not forget the

true centerpiece of Titans -- the unequalled king of the battlefield,

the Main Battle Tank!

More detail and instructions are available in the Soldier's Field Guide.

Levels -

D-A - Fifteen starts. Timid and Simple, 1 tank each team.

Normal and Heroic, 1 tank, 1 soldier. Legendary, 1 tank, 2

soliders. Allows Terries, Captures, KoH, LMotH, Assassin,

StB, and Body Count.

Patrol - 15 starts. Timid 1 soldier. Simple 2, Normal 3, Heroic

4, Legendary 6. Allows the same games as D-A.

S-2 - A two team map with soldiers and field cannons. Adds

Flag Rally and Capture the Flag to the game options.

T-2 - A two team map throws tanks into the mix with the

soldiers. Also adds Flag Rally and Capture the Flag to the

game options.

T-2+ - A two team map with the same units as T-2, just

twice as many of them, for twice the mayhem! Also adds

Flag Rally and Capture the Flag to the game options.

[Lee]

Well, Myth and Myth II are different than most strategy games.

I'm talking about your typical Dune II, TA or C&C type game with

hordes of units running around, bases to build, etc. It's very

hard to even keep up with such games, let alone have to worry about

adjusting cameras constantly to properly view your troops and give

orders to them. And even in Myth you had better be quick with that

camera if you want to stay on top of the action, especially

against a skilled opponent.

I have no problem with RTS games having 3D terrain and units (al-

though for maximum detail on the characters/units really good 2D

looks great, just look at AOE II, Jagged Alliance, Diablo II, etc.).

I just would prefer if your average RTS type game would be designed

in such a way that even though the game is 3D the player rarely is

forced to move a camera view around just to follow the action, as he'll

likely be very busy as is with the hectic pace of such games.

CM is different in that while moving the camera around to survey

the battlefield is critical, you have plenty of time to do so before

you issue orders. And once the action begins there is nothing you

can do to affect the combat, so you are in no particular rush. Plus,

you can replay it if you miss something.

One solution to the problem of RTS games degenerating into click

fests that I have long advocated is to greatly lower the number

of units that one must command in a scenario, but to greatly increase

their value and strength as individuals. This seems to be the

direction that WC III is taking and I'm glad a company is finally

giving it a try. This should lessen the extent to which the player

is made to rush all over the map desperately trying to give orders

as fast as possible. And it will also give the player a chance to

see his units as something other than utterly expendable cannon fodder.

Having this extra time to think and make the most of one's troops, I

think is a better way to design a RTS game.

And I think the idea of heroes in WC III looks very cool. I like

that RPG aspect, a most welcome addition to a RTS game.

[Guest Ol' Blood & Guts]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tom w:

(watch out though, there is ALOT of blood!)

-tom w

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great, I can feel me fangs gettin' tingly already!

------------------

"Why don't we say that we took this one chance, and fought!"

"Stupid humans. Hahahahahahaha!"

--from the film Battlefield Earth

[Guest Ol' Blood & Guts]

Hey, I went and checked out those Myth 2 sites and the Word War plug-in sites and they do look pretty cool. What's funny is when Myth 1 came out I still had my P-120, and the posted requirements were P-133. That was before 3D accelerators were around.

I looked around the Bungie Software pages and such and looked at screenshots, they look cool, but is the game system really worth getting into? In other words, should I buy it? The only place on the net that sells Myth 2 for Windows is Bungie's on-line store.

I think it's only $20 now. But what I thought looked confusing is that it looked extremely easy to wipe out a horde of enemy with ranged attacks.

[Guest tom w]

I've played Myth II and I like it, because I think it is fun.

It is different than CM because it is a Real Time Stratedgy game but there is no resource harvesting or management.

I like the game but it does require a very high graphics card and fast (over 200 mHz) cpu to really enjoy it, I would say.

Check out the quicktimes of their combat action, at this web page:

http://www.clanplaid.net/misc/titans/quicktime.html

It is not really supposed to be all that realistic, like CM it is much more game like. You can turn the blood off and you can lock it off with a password.

I think you should check it out because it may have some features that CM would like to adopt or emulate.

And I think it looks VERY well done, but it is still a great deal less realistic (much more video game like) than CM.

I would suggest everyone who plays CM should see how Myth II has been adopted for WW II, and notice the plug-in is Free.

I would really like to know WHY the plug is free?

any body know why a third party made a WW II plug-in for Myth II and is now giving it away?

beats me?

-tom w

[NCrawler]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I would really like to know WHY the plug is free?

any body know why a third party made a WW II plug-in for Myth II and is now giving it away?

beats me?

-tom w<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is free because it was developed by gamers, for gamers. Similar to SP:WAW...

[Guest Ol' Blood & Guts]

tom w, what is it with you about the "blood factor"? No offense, just curious....

Is it your Canadian conservatism?

And as for the free plug-ins, what's so hard to understand about that? What on-line add-on or patch has ever costed?

To me, there is no difference between free plug-ins for Myth 2 as there is in free scenario downloads for CM. Now, I'm sure you won't wanna pay Wild Bill Wilder for the scenarios he's making. Also, any "un-official" add-ons, scenarios, textures, or what have you, the authors do not have the legal rights to charge for mods due to the original product's patent/copyright.

I don't understand why people argue against something being "free". A free meal always tastes better than one you have to pay for.

------------------

"Why don't we say that we took this one chance, and fought!"

"Stupid humans. Hahahahahahaha!"

--from the film Battlefield Earth

[This message has been edited by Ol' Blood & Guts (edited 05-08-2000).]

[Lindan]

just to add my 2p:

Battlezone

Battezone II

true 3D RTS, lots of units, good looking,

great gameplay, excellent reviews...

..and nobody bought it!

cu

------------------

<"let's take off and nuke the site from orbit! It's the only way to be sure">

-Cpl. Hicks, Aliens II

[Guest Kettle Black]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lindan:

just to add my 2p:

Battlezone

Battezone II

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You beat me to it...

Haven't tried BZ2, read some so-so reviews on it. You like it?

I always wanted to "drive" the Sasquatch in BZ1, "For God and Country" LOL

If there were more dynamic missions it would be even better imo.

K-B

[Guest Scott Clinton]

FWIW

> The only place on the net that sells Myth 2

> for Windows is Bungie's on-line store....I

> think it's only $20 now.

I see the Myth compilation (both games) for $19.99 and Myth II for $9.99 in just about every software store in D/FW. Look around its a lot cheaper than $20, if you really want it.

------------------

Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[This message has been edited by Scott Clinton (edited 05-08-2000).]

[Guest tom w]

Since the topic of Blood in CM was so hotly debated and members of both the no side and the yes side were so passionate about the issue I thought I would mention that Myth II and the WW II plug-ins have plenty of blood.

Nothing more, whether there is blood or not

does not really bother me.

I am proudly Canadian, but I hope I'm not perceived as "conservative"

I thought the folks who developed the WW II plugins for Myth II (they had NOTHING to do with the orginal game designers or company as I understand it) should be compensated for their efforts, but if they want to give it away for free then what the heck, I'll down load it and play it.

any other questions?

-tom w

"Remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

G. S. Patton

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ol' Blood & Guts:

tom w, what is it with you about the "blood factor"? No offense, just curious....

Is it your Canadian conservatism?

I don't understand why people argue against something being "free". A free meal always tastes better than one you have to pay for.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Trooper]

For some reason, I went and bought Homeworld (OK, it had a catchy theme tune by Yes!). 3D isn't just nice, it's required since units can attack from all three axis. The camera works very well once you get the knack of using it without thought.(This took me all of 90 seconds to figure out).

I can't see why, if Force Commander had a similar interface (And I don't now if it has or not) it can't work in land-based RTSs.

NTM

[Guest Ol' Blood & Guts]

I played Warzone 2100 for a long time in 1999. It was a 3D RTS with a floating camera like Force Commander and CM. I had no difficulty with camera controls. Force Commander camera is just like CM's but it doesn't have the neat little camera "arrow keys" like CM does and is therefore difficult to get that "just-right" camera angle. I think that is why people are having a hard time with Force Commander's camera. But it operates not to much unlike CM's, it's just CM has a better interface for controling it, that's all.

[iggi]

Ol' Blood & Guts

If you do not see my links, it must be your browser because I can see them fine on my browser, The UBB code might be more universal though.