PBM/IPX RULES!! NZers games / international

[STRAKER]

OK ive found to much moaning and arguing over things being gamey or not.

So hey im gonna add some rules me NZ mates may want to play ( also included are rules we are playing by)in our league challanges.

All NZers please feel free to comment as this will affect out little game league we have going. If u want a new rule in comment here, and it will be discussed etc.

To any one else feel free to make POSITIVE comments. This is for serious rule making , no flaming thanks. If this turns into a gaint flame ill asked those who caused it to be removed from the board or have this locked up. This is mainly for NZers who are currently playing in / or who want to play the little league thing we have going.

If we happen to make some good rules here feel free to make wide use of these all.

OK big thanks to Fionn for his 76 rule we use and KIWIJOE/PERTER NZ for there current comments and help.

The main problem with these rules is do we aim to play realisticly or just use whatever we buy for whatever means we see fit?.

Here is a starting list i guess.

(Current) means a current rule in general use. ? means discuss.

1. Crew must retreat or hide. If in an objective zone they must retreat out of it.(CURRENT)?

2. No scouting with AT teams. (CURRENT)

3. No last turn suicide flag rushing. (CURRENT)

4. Fionns 76 Rule....No tank guns bigger than 76 mm (CURRENT)

5. No Fast recons up the side? after a certain turn? only recons allowed are with certain vehicle types? No charging straight headon into enemy, fast withdrawls etc?

Using your speed as an armed vehicle, u should be allowed to distract guns etc moving around the battlefield, but charging right up should be disallowed unless u have support coming etc.

Definition of a recon? is it to attack the enemy with the recon vehicle? or is it to find enemy positions and retreat as safetly as possible.?

6. Definition of a recon is 1-2 vehicles of the apropriate type moving foward to recon any flank using recon rules; and an attack is 3+ fast vehicles going up one flank at the same time ( basically do whatever u want).?

7. Force composition no mixing of more than two nationalities? maybe three i dunno and german no mixing of more than 2 -3 different troops types ie SS, Army etc?

8. No using UNARMOURED/ UNARMED vehicles in distracting roles/attacking roles unless carrying troops. eg drive truck at tank so while tank aims at it; your tank kills enemy tank.?

Some ideas anything else.

Gamey definition to me is unrealistic play with specific units.

But how realistic do we want play here?

NO FLAMING THANKS!!!!!!!

[Oddball_E8]

Not that i play PBEM or live in NZ i still would like to add this suggestion.

Sometimes you like to have a big tank... so instead of fionns 76 rule try this.

For every tank bought that is "no-no" in fionns rules 3 allowed tanks must be bought...

so if you wanted a KT you would have to buy 3 PzIV too.

just a suggestion (I happen to be inlove with the Easy Eight, so to me this would be a nice rule since i would have to buy 3 "lousy" shermans to buy one E8)

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Wof, wof, wof, wof... Thats my other dog imitation.

[PeterNZer]

76 rule is good. I think it should exclude the SP guns? like the AVRE, Priest, Wespe etc?

As for gamey recon.. tricky. Hmm.

If you rush someone's setupzone it's gamey, but really.. hmm, using armored cars to scout out isn't that gamey in my mind. On some maps if you don't conduct recon with vehicles you can be pretty sure that you will loose half a platoon to some kind of fire.

PeterNZ

[KiwiJoe]

AC's arnt Pete... but jeeps are

Try half squads under cover and smoke. AC's up the flanks is fine if they try and use the cover there and dont just zip along in open ground to draw fire and ID enemy locations.

I wish light armour had a withdraw command like infantry. I find i HAVE to issue a whole lot of fast move commands in 1 go to my ac's. Making them move up to the enemy, zip around a bit then retreat. Because if u change their orders once u spot a tank and tell them to come home there is a 13 sec delay which means they die.

[KiwiJoe]

Oh and on the last turn suicide falg rush. I think if u hold a VL for 10 turns or more it should become "fortified". By this I mean if the enemy simply places units nearby the Flag doesnt go "?". they actually have to kill all your units and have some of theirs near the flag for it to change to theirs. this would stop gamey tactics around flags.

[This message has been edited by KiwiJoe (edited 10-18-2000).]

[Guest Mike the bike]

Some comments from a newbie to the full version (but an old hand on the demo):

Why the 2 vehicle limit for recon? In small games 2 vehicles may be your entire mobile reserve and constitute a major attack!!

Use of soft vehicles for recce (eg jeeps): IMO they are perfectly acceptable in a wider sense, perhaps in the first game of an op like "A Day in the Cavalry", but probably not when things get "tactical". IMO in a CM battle the (pre-battle) recce has put you in a position where you KNOW there's enemy out there somewhere, so that job HAS been done.

So just ban soft vehicles outright - they should not be on the battlefield even for transport at this level IMO.

[Guest Mike the bike]

A slight correction - I suggest banning soft vehicles unless they are armed.

[crocky]

Some good ideas

I also think that air support should not be allowed and artillery as per Fionns rules

Short 75 up to 105mm

76 rule up to 155mm

[M. Bates]

If you must have a rule, then why not just make it no Sherman Jumbos or King Tigers.

All this making rules gets a bit much. In practice I agree with with voluntary codes, but come on guys, it's a simulation of tactics, and if you take care and preparation, then you can win whatever the enemy units.

I figure that if he is investing in heavy units, then he is lacking in other places.

Any light tank and an infantry team can defeat any tank however big it is!

[STRAKER]

WE play alot of 1500 - 2000 point quick battles so thtas why I suggested the vehicle limit for recon.

We can buy alot of vehicles for that.

As to banning unarmed vehicles, thats not right.

U can use kilberlwagons for instance later in the battle to assist in flanking attacks -high speed transport ie throw a mg gunner in the car run him behind the enemy and drop him there to aid in supressing fire.

Wiht him inplace u add more units to the flank/rear attack.

OK artillery wise we all tend to use the standard 105 mm etc.

Going bigger, well i havent seen it yet and its dam expensive and its as rare to see it as it was in RL so none of us are worried by that.

Aircraft hehe i havent seen any of those either.

These options if used all the time might be banned but no one has used em yet.

SO anything goes at present with that.

Nice idea though.

Ill wait 4 a few more ideas eh well try and get something solid going rule wise.

[Guest Mike the bike]

True - and ultimately the answer to jeeps is snipers & MG42 LMG's, both of which are pretty cheap and also can be useful in straight combat.

Perhaps it shouldn't be as much of a problem as it is - a string of snipers will screw and sneaky jeeps without giving away any state secrets - but I can sympathise with players who find the necessity of doing this odious!

Perhaps public odium and condemnation are as good a deterrant as anything since we're talking about a relatively small group of players?

[PeterNZer]

Sounds like a good rough outline. I don't like getting too rulesy. Only thing i'd really object to is a player jeep-rushing me or using a lot of heavies 'against' the mission orders, (ie. sitting back and waiting waiting in a meet/engage)

But then i'd just call them a gamey dodgy bastard in a thread

PeterNZ

[Priest]

I respect that you guys are thinking of ways to improve the game for your group but I think that it just limits the experience. The group I play with has no limitations yet we have very balanced and fun games. Have I seen somebody try the "gamey" recon tricks. Sure but after about two turns the jeeps were all abandoned and all that my opponent got to see was 2 MG teams which he promptly lost contact with. I displaced them some 20m or so and let him fly with artillery if he wanted (he never did). In fact it helped because he steered his troops towards the threat and allowed me to flank. Or how about the time my friend close assaulted a immobile KT with about 6 squads and 3 AT teams for about three turns before the crew abandoned (the undead KT of legend). Also if people wanna do something with crews great more pts. for me and a big loss of men for them. I have lost 1 man for all the games I have played to date to crews. I personally usually run crews to the rear or off the side of the map I entered. I can understand the nationality clause. And what is the big deal scouting with AT teams. I don't do it (I like to save them for tanks) but if my opponent does he will meet my front recon screen, lose his AT teams, and then be unable to deal with my tanks later. And and and and...well I could go on but my point is not to disect your rules because you all agreed to play them so it is cool. I have yet to see a true gamey technique just ones that cheat (artillery spotting round problem) and bad ideas (what most people label gamey). Rommel once sent a force of light tanks and trucks with bundles of wood and brush tied behind them causing a large dust cloud that the Allies took for the whole of Afrika Corp. They repositioned and fell prey to his Heavy tanks which came from the rear. Gamey or ingenious? Remember if you have fallen prey to one of these tactics you call it gamey. If you totally destroy five jeeps by turn 3 and eliminate 110pts of you opponents troops with no losses to yourself you just think your opponent stupid. It is all perspective. Group rules fine but (and this is probably the wrong thread for this because I do respect your rules STRAKER and the do make GAME sense) I am tired of the constant barrage of this is gamey and this isn't because now people are going to to extremes to prevent these things and limiting the game. Oh well that was invigorating. See what happens when I watch the presidential debates.

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Sir are you sure you want to go to red alert...it would mean changing the bulb

-Priest

[This message has been edited by Priest (edited 10-18-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Priest (edited 10-18-2000).]

[STRAKER]

Nice post Priest.

The thing is with me ( similar to how u and your opponents have played ) ive been happy to play with whatever i bought and use it how ive wanted to.

Gamey or not has never bothered me.

Gamey recon usually dies against me.

Alot of these problems also i believe would be solved if BTS released a unit command called <<<<<HOLD FIRE>>>>>>>

However looking back at the odd thing i did i found many of my moves ( the rare one ) a little lame. I myself like to play as realisticly as possible but at the end of the day are u out to play realisticaly or win? We like to use what we paid for..

Its an interesting debate could go on for ever.

Basically having rules does suck, i agree, but a few basic ones like we have wont hurt.

And it might make the game ok.

Basically the people like PeterNZ, KIWIJOE etc are good to play with, we dont have any probs really, were just all trying to get a quick rule clairfication setup we all agree with for any future game with others etc.

Here the is below proposed curent rule setup.

1. Crew must retreat or hide. No advancing to assist in helping take objectives.

May asist in defending support guns etc ie move beside a infantry gun etc for group support as long as they are not advancing.

2. No scouting with AT teams.

3. No last turn suicide flag rushing.

Also regarding the idea that troops could mass either side of objective, not an issue, as tactically speaking they will have to take it sooner or later, else that objective will become drawn if both sides are massing.

4. Fionns 76 Rule....No tank guns bigger than 76 mm , Self propelled guns can be any size. Artillery any size, Aircraft any.

This is the only rule we have to get sorted i think...

5. Recons should be allowed up the side middle etc, as long as the reconing side doesnt charge head on into units etc.

ie If u see the enemy u should have to try and move away from them, thus no charging up the side thru defenses up the back middle etc with jeeps, utilty vehicles, kirblewagons. If u have a hvy recon unit or light u are welcome to attack units.

But no cheap reconing thru the rear in the first 10 turns anyways unless u are attacking etc that area with the vehicle.

The recon thing is what get us here.

We could just play anything goes with recon,

up to u guys.

Im happy with all the above rules except recon.. what u want to do?

6. I was thinking we all play a certain amount of games each all 1500 point, or 2000 point and we note down the outcome and points.

That way preserving units will be come more important, making crazy recons a waste of points maybe.

Points won by should be considered just as important as winning.

[STRAKER]

Weird, I wrote HOLDFIRE in the middle of the arrows things and it didnt come up.

oh well enoiugh suspense u know what it was now.

[Priest]

cool

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Sir are you sure you want to go to red alert...it would mean changing the bulb

-Priest

[PeterNZer]

All sounds good to me

the less rules the better.

Lets just agree to play with honor

The no at/no rush/no crew thing sounds good.

I'd even be happy to play against people with KT's and so on.. hmm yeah.. so if you want to ditch fionn's 76 rule, that's fine by me

PeterNZ

[KiwiJoe]

Yeah I would luv a hold fire command... ie. dont fire until u are fired apon. Also a withdraw command for vechiles... its unrealistic to make them wait in the middle of no where for 13 secs after they spot a tank in front of them before they can retreat.

I dont think ANY scouting with ANY unarmoured vechile should be allowed. Its not about how fast they are, or how easy they die, its about realism for me. I sure the hell wouldnt drive my 4-wheel drive truck towards a known enemy position. If my commanding officer told me to drive a jeep into the enemy unsupported... I'd drive down the road till I was outta sight, ditch the jeep in some trees by the road, set fire to it, wait a few hours and then walk back.

[Priest]

Kiwi this is why you are not in the military (that was a joke)

Anyways weren't jeeps used in recon ***SPOILER****

In Team Sobry they are.

Two to three jeeps with a M8 in the back for support is not unrealistic to me (again I know you said unsupported jeeps but your rule allows know unarmored vehicles even if supported) If you guys use some basic restraint and honor (which sounds like you guys do anyway) then unarmored recon does not seem like a problem.

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Sir are you sure you want to go to red alert...it would mean changing the bulb

-Priest

[PeterNZer]

Thing is, while you might do that, a soldier wouldn't. Quite often soldiers had to do stuff that was risky, and if they disobeyed orders all the time.. well there wouldn't be much war (hey, there's an idea ).

I think just no rear-area rushing with jeeps is more than reasonable. Proper recon, with groups of 5 or 10 men is hard to model in CM. Out of C&C the squads are useless.. which isn't exactly what happened in real life. Often an officer or NCO would lead a small group off to look for the bad guys and they wouldn't disolve as split squads do now.. hmm not sure a good solution.

PeterNZ

[Guest Mike the bike]

Priest - the Jeeps with M-8 suport are in "A Day in the Cavalry", and are armed with .50's, hence I changed my suggestion.

Armed "soft" vehicles WERE used a lot for recon - I recall seeing photos of French SAS Jeeps armed up to teh eyeballs with twin .303 Vickers "K"'s, Brownings and Brens, and I'm sure we've all seen photos of LRDG MBT's,.... er....I mean trucks, with 20mm and even 47mm cannon on them!

Isn't it the use of ultra cheap, unarmed jeeps (KBL's., etc) for recce that's the problem?

[Priest]

Damnit Mike your right. Anyways the argument was made against unarmored vehicles not unarmed vehicles. I agree I would rather send the .50 cal jeep than the unarmed jeep but hey sometimes you just do not have a choice. Also about split squads I agree. Except for Fionn (and we looked up to the sky and offered CM to Fionn and he said it was good)(can you tell I just read one of his AAR) I have never witnessed a split squad do anything spectacular or even above average. I like to use sharpshooters myself but really they are another unit that worked well before (say 2 months ago) but have fizzled out lately (patch?).

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Sir are you sure you want to go to red alert...it would mean changing the bulb

-Priest

[STRAKER]

OK well ditch Fionns 76 rule,

All vote on it!!!!!

im in favour, but well keep all the main rules above.

i personally dont like Tiggers that much any more after the way they have performed.

Panthers rock.

Regarding the comment that unarmoured vehicles were used alot for recon is true, I agree. SAS JEEPS ETC, ive also seen hvy armed Kierbilwagons. I was trying to stess more how they were being used in game charging the enemy with them etc. Thats really something for an armoured car to do.

The point is in any game u can charge jeeps etc, armed, unarmed ( long as they have troops in em ) and there are enough, to represent an attack. Thats legit etc.

Moving troops up dropping them off etc is legit.

The they can do what they want.

Its not about what u use, its more about how u use it generally speaking.

For someone to recon up and see a gun, if he attacks it and stays attacking it, thats legit to me. Flying past it and hooning so to speak right thru the whole enemy area is sad. Thats what id like not to see basically.

I think well play with an honour system regarding this i think, its still up to the individual but if u play against someone who does this alot the choice is yours to stop playing with them i guess.

But the main rules made 1 -3 will hold in all our games.

Fionns rule is optional, u can aggree to that before ya game i guess.

Anyhting else people want to bring up?

ie no biting in Hand to hand or pulling hair?

[KiwiJoe]

I think u guys are looking at jeep recon a little wrong. Sure they prolly where used in the recon role a lot. But not on CM's scale. IE. by the time the battle starts in CM the enemy is on your doorstep, u know they are within 1 km directly in front of you and rougly what strength they have... 1500 point combined arms etc. This is the sort of info recon jeeps would have/ may have gathered. They wouldnt have advandanced right on top of the enemy forces to "pinpoint" locations. THATS SUICIDE.

We all know if u send a jeep onto the enemy's side of the map it dies 99% of the time. This practice of advandancing to pointblank range with unarmoured cars would simply not have been allowed with loses like that.