willmontgomery Posted September 16, 2000 Share Posted September 16, 2000 This is kind of a spin-off of the ".50 cal too effective?" thread: I'm working with a platoon of three PzKpfw IIs in a QB with self-purchase (what I really wanted was .50 cal Jeep equivalents, i.e. fast, mobile MGs, but the Reich rudely failed to build any for me), stiffened by a single PzKpfw IVH. The Lynxes have been doing a marvelous job of punishing my opponent for his carelessness with an M3 scout car, an M8 Greyhound, an M3 halftrack, and an M7 Priest. (What's with all these M's. Anyone want to buy a vowel?) I'm looking forward to mopping up his infantry with my vehicle-mounted MGs, I'm finally going to win a PBEM, and I'm patting myself on the back for having the Lynxes because of their (presumably) greater anti-armor capability compared to what I would have purchased had it been available. Then his M4A3(75)W appears. It's my PzKpfw IVH vs. his Sherman, and everyone else on the battlefield can just form a ring around those two guys while they duel. I try to figure how to maybe use my three lightly armored popguns to help fix the fight in favor of my guy, but I'm a newbie so "I'm trying to think but nothing happens." Anyway, my point (and I do have one) is that while I'm trying to scatter my Lynxes to cover (plus giving orders to get started on the machine-gunning of helpless infantry), my Lynx drivers have apparently deluded themselves into thinking that they can play with the big boys. They are targeting a tank they cannot kill while exposing themselves to fire that can certainly kill them. When the brawl is over I have one dead Lynx and one immobilized Lynx, and the PzKpfw IVH and Sherman have impaled themselves on each other's swords. Under those circumstances I'd trade the PzKpfw IVH for the Sherman if necessary, because the VL forced me to engage the Sherman and because if we remove the two medium tanks from the map then I command the only army with MG/light cannon-equipped relatively invulnerable armored mobile boxes. But instead of three of them, I have only one. Now certainly this could have happened, so I'm not claiming lack of realism. I'm just wondering why the AI would behave so suicidally, at least when I had not asked for such a sacrifice? When you ask for suicide the AI won't always give it to you, and that's good. Was it making up with foolish bravado for all those times it balked? I'd edit this post, but it won't let me correct the spelling in the title... [This message has been edited by willmontgomery (edited 09-16-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted September 16, 2000 Share Posted September 16, 2000 Your Lynxes do have a chance of killing the Sherman, however small. I would ask: If they hadn't engaged it, would your Mark IV have had the chance to kill it? Even if the Sherman can pop the Lynxes easily, the Mark IV has a chance to pop him while he's doing it. The problem is usually that tanks are too keen to get the hell out if they encounter a bigger adversary. How experienced were they? Better experienced crews are less likely to bug out. David ------------------ They lost all of their equipment and had to swim in under machine gun fire. As they struggled in the water, Gardner heard somebody say, "Perhaps we're intruding, this seems to be a private beach." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willmontgomery Posted September 17, 2000 Author Share Posted September 17, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken: Your Lynxes do have a chance of killing the Sherman, however small. I would ask: If they hadn't engaged it, would your Mark IV have had the chance to kill it? Even if the Sherman can pop the Lynxes easily, the Mark IV has a chance to pop him while he's doing it. The problem is usually that tanks are too keen to get the hell out if they encounter a bigger adversary. How experienced were they? Better experienced crews are less likely to bug out. David <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thanks for your reply. As far as the chance of killing the Sherman, I presume it must be pretty remote. When I set a targeting order from a Lynx to the Sherman, it gave a pretty good chance of hitting and said Kill: None, so I canceled that order. Maybe it was hull down or a frontal shot, and a flank shot might not be as futile. I didn't pay that much attention; I didn't really know how to use the Lynxes effectively in that situation, my glorious first victory suddenly appeared to be in jeopardy, and I just wanted to get them out of harm's way. I don't honestly know if they helped. It was PBEM, so I guess I could ask my opponent whether their presence made a difference. The Sherman was buttoned because infantry was nearby, and maybe having 20mm shells rapping gently on the outside of the tank would also make the crew less likely to note the presence of the PzKpfw IVH trying to line up the Sherman for a shot. All my crews were regular. It's the fiber in that Muesli I feed them... PS They have smoke generators but no order to pop smoke. Do they just do that on their own? Is the order on the menu for the PzKpfw IVH an order to fire a smoke shell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abbott Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 The smoke generators are controlled by the AI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeydz Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 What range was it from the Lynx to the Sherman. Just looking at the charts, the best the Lynx can penetrate, with 0 deg slope, using AP ammo at 100 meters is 32. The weakest armor value on any Sherman is 38. A. Either the Lynx has a miniscule chance at a "standard" penetration at extreme close range, though I doubt it... or... B. The Lynx gunner was hoping for a penetration hitting a weak spot on the armor, which may be possible... or... C. Perhaps the Lynx was hoping to help by getting a track hit to immobilize the Sherman. You also can't rule out that perhaps the TAC-AI canceled you move order and created it's own reverse order. If it did, I think your Vehicle suffers a command delay, just as if you had canceled and replotted the order on your own. And since the gunner knew he wasn't going anywhere a at least a few seconds, might as well take a couple of pot shots at the M4. I actually tested this kind of stuff a while back, and the AI almost always will retreat a tank that was in the same boat at your Lynx. As far as the smoke goes, that is under control of the Tac-Ai for defensive purposes. I would have guessed that at least 1 of your Lynx would have popped smoke, but that's not a certainty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 Ok, I'm not sure I understand what happened here. I sounds like your tanks were moving along and encountered the Sherman and then the turn ended. You then ploted orders for your Lynxes to take cover while your Mark IV engaged the Sherman. During the time delay before the Lynxes begin to move again they fire at the Sherman and continue to fire as they are moving as long as they are in LOS. This may not be quite right but that's the impression I get from you discription. You say "they exposed themselves to fire". By this do you mean they moved where you had not ordered them to, or were they just following your orders when they happened upon the Sherman. You may want to use the hunt command in the future, as hunting tanks should always stop as soon as they see enemy armor. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't see what they did that was deliberatly suicidal. If they were following your movement orders it's not their fault they ran out in front of a Sherman. If your saying they should have canceled your orders as soon as they saw the Sherman, you have a point, but keep in mind that unless they were actually shooting at the Sherman at that point (red line to the Sherman) the Lynxes may not have spotted it right away, especially with regular crews and double especially if they were buttoned. Once you gave them new orders they are sitting ducks during the command delay. You could perhaps have altered their existing move orders instead of canceling the old ones and issuing new orders, which would have negated the command delay. In any case, as long as the Lynxes were within LOS of the Sherman I see no problem with them shooting at it. Their lives are in danger and they will try anything to help their odds. A weak point or gun hit are always possible. The smoke dischargers are completely AI controled. I wish this were not so but thats the way it is. ------------------ No, there will be no sequels. Charles and Steve have given up wargame design in disgust and have gone off to Jamaica to invest their new-found wealth in the drug trade. -Michael emrys [This message has been edited by Vanir (edited 09-17-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coralsaw Posted September 19, 2000 Share Posted September 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> All my crews were regular. It's the fiber in that Muesli I feed them... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> LOL - Best line of the month, WillM CoralSaw ------------------ The best things in life are sniped at... [This message has been edited by coralsaw (edited 09-19-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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