# of people in AFV crews?

[Guest Ol' Blood & Guts]

While looking at an old POTD, texturelane.jpg to be exact, a thought crossed my mind. Are the AFV crews, (actually tanks) always 5 men, or are they varied according to historical data and vehicle specs?

Thanks. Nothing life threatening, just curious.

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"Fear is the path to the Dark Side.

Fear leads to anger.

Anger leads to hate.

Hate leads to suffering."

--Jedi Master Yoda

[This message has been edited by Ol' Blood & Guts (edited 04-26-2000).]

[Fionn]

Shame on you for doubting CM OB&G .

Of course every vehicle has exactly the right number of crew. Hell, I think the minimum I've ever seen in a tank is 3 in an old captured French tank ( The R-39 IIRC) and the maximum is 7 ( in Priests and stuff like that).

The average is 5 though.

[Guest Ol' Blood & Guts]

Well that's why I asked, Fionn.

Just checkin' if it *is* THAT accurate.

------------------

"Fear is the path to the Dark Side.

Fear leads to anger.

Anger leads to hate.

Hate leads to suffering."

--Jedi Master Yoda

[This message has been edited by Ol' Blood & Guts (edited 04-26-2000).]

[Guest Big Time Software]

It is

Steve

[Artmann]

Ok,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

Hell, I think the minimum I've ever seen in a tank is 3 in an old captured French tank ( The R-39 IIRC) and the maximum is 7 ( in Priests and stuff like that<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I suggest you to have a look to a Russian Early War Ob (yes I know it will be a CM2 issue), and look at the T35 Tank, a very big one with multi-turreted feature. This can hold a crew of 10 or 12 if I remembered well .

Regards

ARn

[Fionn]

Artmann,

That's nothing.. Check out the A7V sometime . Extra points if anyone can name the Nazi party member who actually fought in the first tank vs tank battle ever. ( WWI tank trivia question).

[Artmann]

Ok,

for the A7V ok, and now the realistic question :

- when such a large crew tank is destroyed but crew survive, do u have a bigger crew (three man squad) ? (remember these ASL rule about large crew, in these case u got 2 crews and not only one).

ARn

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

Artmann,

Extra points if anyone can name the Nazi party member who actually fought in the first tank vs tank battle ever. ( WWI tank trivia question).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was it Ilsa the she-wolf?

Lewis

[Fionn]

Nope, although, it's strange you should mention the name Ilsa. It is a name somewhat connected to his life ( and no, it's not that he liked to dress up in a dress with garter belt and be called Ilsa by all the SS officers in the local tavern..)

Artmann,

If 7 guys are in the crew and 2 die before they bail out then the crew unit equals 5 men. This makes sense in CM since all you really want to do with crew is run them off the map and into a safe area so they can't get themselves all killed.

[Major Tom]

So, if a crew manages to escape in an operation, then there is a possibility they can re-equip a slightly damaged AFV, yada, yada... What if the crew's strength is regularly 5 and only 1 make it off the map, will this be taken into account? Or, will the crew be replenished to 5? Or, will the crew have casualties (but, then it could not run efficently)...?

[Guest Big Time Software]

Why, "Sepp" Dietrich of course Some flavor of Sgt. but I can't recall exactly which.

Even saving one crew member will get you the CHANCE of a vehicle returning. I can't remember if the % of survivors has an impact on your chances. Since this is an abstraction I personally don't think it matters too much either way.

Steve

[Guest Scott Clinton]

> Even saving one crew member will get you

> the CHANCE of a vehicle returning.

I know this has been covered, but a quick search turned up nothing...

If you 'control' the area of the map where the AFV was disabled (assuming it was just disabled and not completely destroyed) does this also effect the % chance for the crew to be 're-equipped' in-between battles in an operation? (did that make sence?)

Here's an easy on for us Yank grogs...

Who was not only in but COMMANDED the US forces in the first tank battle by US forces in WWI? Hint: he would fight and defeat the Germans again on the same ground in WWII.

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Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[This message has been edited by Scott Clinton (edited 04-27-2000).]

[Guest KwazyDog]

Scott, I am 99% sure it does

If you have a vehicle that is disable withing friendly lines, it is one which may be repaired and returned to you for the next battle. If it is within friendly lines, you cant get to it to tow it back

Also, one other point along these line. If a vehicle burn within an operation, that is pretty much the end of the line for it. A good lesson to learn is that if your defending, make them burn I beleive I read elsewhere on this forum that this was often done by German tank and gun crews.

[Fionn]

Steve,

Correct.

Scott,

Wasn't it Patton?

[Artmann]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

This makes sense in CM since all you really want to do with crew is run them off the map and into a safe area so they can't get themselves all killed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok,

I'm sorry Fionn, but I have found some other uses for crew :

1) fire pistols to the nearest ennemy if in range, this is enough to catch attention of an ennemy bazooka team ;

2) run wild in the open to the objective, this magnet all mg in the world and allow u to make the real move with the real squad untouch

3) in general confused AI, what are u doing human, this is not programmed !

I try this in challenge#1, and for more than 10 turns I have hold a wood with 2 dismounted sherman crew. AI finally launch 2 MG and 3 squads at them, this allow me to pinned them with the real threat : a lone .50 MG !

One suggestion may be, such crews in CM should have their own status (like permanently broken) unless Japanese, or some very fanatical or desesperate unit (partisan or commando).

ARn

[tss]

I'm sorry Fionn, but I have found some other uses for crew :

1) fire pistols to the nearest ennemy if in range, this is enough to catch attention of an ennemy bazooka team ;

2) run wild in the open to the objective, this magnet all mg in the world and allow u to make the real move with the real squad untouch

When playing operations those tactics mean that you are sacrificing your future tank support for simple diversions. IIRC, if your tank crew survives the battle, there's a change that it will be given a replacement tank in the next combat. If it dies, well, say a final goodbye to your armored support.

Also, I think that sacrificing tank crews gives the enemy a hefty victory point bonus.

- Tommi

[Artmann]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tss:

Also, I think that sacrificing tank crews gives the enemy a hefty victory point bonus.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok,

so why should we have a total control on something which should be totally out of control in many case ! And yes I can sacrify a crew if the price to pay is to sacrify the crew, and I have nothing else to bargain, mostly in a stand alone scenario of course ! Just imagine that, you were in a tank, then Clank ! Boom ! Woorf ! and the crew just manage to get out. Do u really think that you will be OK and with the behaviour to obey order from an infanterie lieutnant ? I wander how fanatical I will be in such a case.

ARn

[Guest Big Time Software]

Artman,

We can not prevent every "abuse", but we can make it a bad idea in general. You can do some of the same things with bailed out team crews or greatly depleted squads. However, the cost of using a vehicle crew is higher, hugely so in Operations.

However, I think you will find that the things you mentioned are going to be harder to do in the full version. There were many things, especially with the AI, that have been fixed so that such moves won't work more often than will.

Steve

[Artmann]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Artman,

However, I think you will find that the things you mentioned are going to be harder to do in the full version.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok,

and that was exactly what I need to heard : you made such fool moves harder to made, and you teach poor little AI how to take care of such fool moves.

Thanks

ARn

[Fionn]

Artmann,

You can order your crews to do some very stupid things if you wish BUT in an operation where losing that crew might be the difference between having a tank to support you next game or not having a tank you'll find that you don't waste the crews foolishly any more.

[Guest Ol' Blood & Guts]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

Scott,

Wasn't it Patton?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ol' Blood & Guts himself! Muhahahah

------------------

"Fear is the path to the Dark Side.

Fear leads to anger.

Anger leads to hate.

Hate leads to suffering."

--Jedi Master Yoda

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

,

Extra points if anyone can name the Nazi party member who actually fought in the first tank vs tank battle ever. ( WWI tank trivia question).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Marlene Dietrich?

[Guest GriffinCheng]

Would there be any other weapons other than pistols for bailed-out crews? I remember seeing a photo which Panzer III crews took with them a bow MG when going through the side door.

Ooops, I think I have asked this one before...

Griffin bz @ work

[Guest Scott Clinton]

No, vech. crews will bail out with only with pistols. This is done mainly (IMO) to keep players from using them as close assualt squads.

This may not seem 'right' to some people but the abuse of bailed out vechile crews in a VERY un-historical manner is MASSIVE in every game system on WWII I have seen that allows crews to bail with SMGs, etc. (And for the record that is a LOT of game systmes )

We will see if limiting them to pistols is enough to prevent this abuse. If it is not, I will be the first to 'lobby' for MORE limitations on bailed out crews in CM2!

> Scott, Wasn't it Patton

Indeed it was...a mere Major at the time IIRCC. A commision that he lost after WWI ended too. The battle was in the Ardennes (sp).

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Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[This message has been edited by Scott Clinton (edited 04-28-2000).]

[Guest Big Time Software]

Thanks Scott for bringing that critical point up. Use of vehicle crews for shock troops is indeed a huge problem since it happens in other wargames but did not happen in real life. When we looked at fixing this terrible loophole that other games have, we instantly saw one of the big problems. And that was that these crews bailed out with their assigned weapons and full loads of ammo. Yeah, right!

I've seen a few interior shots of AFVs that show where and how the weapons are stowed. Trying to get such a thing unstrapped and carried out in a hurry (ever try to get out of an AFV? Two hands almost always required!), complete with ammo pouches, is not realistically possible.

So it seems that the core cause of the problem, as well as the core of the solution can, be found with the weapons assigned to bailed out crews. That is why they get pistols only. It is both realistic AND helps to stop the ahistorical use of crews as assault squads.

BTW, some vehicles did NOT have SMGs assigned to them. For example, the standard weapon for a 251 crew, IIRC, was a Kar98k not an MP40.

Steve