Lanzfeld Posted May 18, 2000 Share Posted May 18, 2000 My buddy and I (who I am trying to get interested in CM) took a trip to the Aberdeen Proving Grounds tank display today in Maryland. All I have to say is OUTSTANDING!!! Anyone who is within a three hour drive of the place should go. They have a HUGE collection of WW2 and modern tanks and field guns. Mostly WW2 though. Many WW2 German tanks because when the Allies captured German tanks they sent them to Aberdeen for testing (many have shell holes in them and some really cool glancing richochets!!). My buddy and I used to play CC2 against each other and I want him to play CM. Short list of some of the armour there are: Pz IV with turret skirt Pz V Panther A Pz V Panther G Marder III Hetzer StuH 42 Jagdpanther Jagdtiger (many richochets off front armour) Churchill Firefly T-34 SU-100 JS-3 Nebelwerfer <--- The German rocket launcher Many small arms (BARS, MG 42, M1's..ect..) Some realizations..... The Panther is a VERY intimidating tank. I got chills just looking at that monster. The Jagdtiger is F-ing HUGE!!!!!!! 80 tons!!!!!Very high profile. To actually touch this stuff and feel how very solid and tough they are hits home. CM will not be the same. They had an M-1 there but to tell you the truth.......Panthers are way more intimidating. Go if you can...its free!!!! Oh yeah....in the gift shop they sell those WW2 german action dolls. Really detailed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Bailey Posted May 18, 2000 Share Posted May 18, 2000 Lanzfeld, I live in DC and have been to the Proving Grounds half a dozen times. It certainly is an outstanding spot to witness history in real life. I hope with all the spending cuts doing on in the US military, this place doesn't get neglected - it has slowly gone down-hill since I started visiting maybe 15 years ago. Be the way, the M-1 may look very docile just sitting there, but trust me, when you are buried in some cold foxhole on some cold ridge with only a TOW and a few Dragons between you and that beast moving at 45 mph, you will think the Devil has let loose his horses! For all the infantryman, James. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgdpzr Posted May 18, 2000 Share Posted May 18, 2000 Love the Proving Grounds! I live 40 minutes from the Patton Museum at Fort Knox. Great museum as well. I had an interesting experience at the Proving Grounds when I went there a few years ago. My father-in-law and I were blissfully touring the field and I was discussing the battlefield merits of the Panther as we were examining the late G they have on display. Apparently, a couple of older gentlemen heard our conversation and one approached and asked if I knew much about this tank. Well, I said a little, but that I am no real expert, just an avid modeller and wargamer. One of the men then asked if I could recommend a good book on the Panther. I pondered the question for a second, and blurted out "Germany's Panther Tank: The Quest for Combat Supremacy" and then stood there openly trying to think who wrote it. At that point, one of the guys (with a wicked little grin) said Tom Jentz, laughed and pointed at the other guy and said "That's him." A good chuckle was had by all! I got a picture with Jentz in front of the Panther, but was disappointed when he didn't offer me a free copy of his book which I had just plugged for him. The nerve, like he is actually trying to make a living or something...vbg Aberdeen is fantastic for its breadth of vehicles on display, but it sure would be better if the vehicles could be covered. Some of the vehicles are really being devoured by rust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest R Cunningham Posted May 18, 2000 Share Posted May 18, 2000 That was (and is) my beef with the open display. It seems that they scrap together some bucks to slap on a new layer of paint every couple of years. Sometimes the shades are really bad...Sears weatherbeater peach.... I haven't been there yet, but the Panzermuseum in Munster has fully restored vehicles that I am dying to see. I get kind of depressed when I look at the poorly cared for vehicles rusting under the Maryland sun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zamo Posted May 18, 2000 Share Posted May 18, 2000 Does Aberdeen have any donations program? It seems to me that with all the modellers and gamers, somebody should be collecting cash to build some sort of structures. If anybody knows of any, please post it. I'd throw in the cost of a new kit or a new game to help them annually. It is a CRIME to allow irreplacible artifacts rust away like that. They wouldn't even need climate controled buildings, just some simple overheads to keep 'em dry to start with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gespenster Posted May 18, 2000 Share Posted May 18, 2000 I live in Northern Virginia, and have traveled to Aberdeen many times. It is indeed a great place to visit. Although it makes me quite sad to see the condition in which all these pieces of History are in ... just rotting away in the sun. They are supposedly trying to restore each vehicle one at a time, but it is taking forever ... the Rail Gun (Anzio Annie) is quite sweeet, and has been redone, But I have no idea which vehicles are currently under restoration (if any). On my last trip to back to Mannheim I did have the privilidge of visiting the Panzermuseum at Münster, and all I could say was WOW! That place is absolutely incredible, the Koenigstiger is just incredible, and is still driveable. Another cool place to visit if you like WWII era Armor is the VMVM (Virginia Military Vehicle Museum) in Nokesville, Va. (just outside Manassas). My WWII reenacting Unit does 2 events per year there (place only open to the public twice a year) They have numerous WWII era tanks and vehicles including many Shermans, T-34's, Churchill, Cromwell, Lee, Grant, and MANY more, all in running condition. Not to many German vehicles other than a Hetzer (made in Switzerland for the German Army), a Czech Half-Track (designed from the German WWII Half-Track), and of course or reproduction SdKfz 232 (8 RAD) (property of my reenacting Unit, 96% actual size) which is very cool. BTW ... For more info on the Panzermuseum Münster visit their homepage ... http://www.panzermuseum.com/ ~G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Bailey Posted May 18, 2000 Share Posted May 18, 2000 Gespenster, I would love to visit the VMVM. Do you have any info on it? Times it is open? Location? Phone Number? I live in Washington, DC and it would be an easy drive if its near Bull Run. Thanks, James. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zamo Posted May 18, 2000 Share Posted May 18, 2000 I've been to Munster, and the Auto-tecnik museum at Sinsheim as well as the WTS at Koblenz. All great museums, even though I found Sinsheim a little too "Campy", the Sturm Morser Tiger was worth it. I did tank school at Ft. Knox and unfortunatly never...NEVER did more than drive by the museum. Shame on me (all we wanted to deo then was drink beer and chase skirts). I plan on returning one day soon. I also have never been to Aberdeen, but have seen lots of pictures and one of the reasons I haven't gone is I'm sure I would just get angry and sad by the deplorable condition of the vehicles. Storage could probably be constructed to protect ALL of them from further decay for the cost of one new Abrams. Tough idea to sell, but I see so much money being squandered on "the arts", (which are about as artistic as cow dung), and these treasures just flaking apart, year after year... Really shows the apathy our nation feels towards its history. Look at the WTS in Koblenz, which is there so budding engineers and soldiers can look at examples of how it was done before and how they might do it better in the future. Capital idea. No wonder the Germans always have such wonderful products, military or otherwise. Too bad somebody at APG didn't capitalize on the sentimental feelings flowing around with the release of Saving Private Ryan or the 50th WWII aniversary a few years ago. It's all such a damn shame... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gespenster Posted May 18, 2000 Share Posted May 18, 2000 Hey James, As I said in my earlier post, VMVM is only open to the public twice a year, once in the Spring and once in the Fall (They have to be open to the public a minimum of twice a year to maintain their museum status) You just missed the Spring open house, it was open on May 6. The next open house will be sometime this Fall, I will post a note to this board when I get a confirmed date. During the open house they usually have a guest speaker, (usually a Veteran) and they talk about the War and their experiences ... This past event they had a USMC veteran who spoke about the War in the Pacific (followed by an AMTrack exibition), and then they follow the talk with an exibition of sorts ... Most of the tanks drive by the crowd while the narrators describe it. I am very much looking forward to this Falls show, they are planning on having a German Panzer Veteran speaking, and our reenactment Unit will be doing a firing exibition ... should be fun, email me if you like or just wait for the post. ------------------ "It is well that War is so terrible, lest we grow to fond of it" Robert E. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gespenster Posted May 18, 2000 Share Posted May 18, 2000 Sorry, double post ... [This message has been edited by Gespenster (edited 05-18-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Bailey Posted May 18, 2000 Share Posted May 18, 2000 Gespenster, German Panzer Vet?!? You bet I am interested! I am dropping you an email now. Thanks, James. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babra Posted May 18, 2000 Share Posted May 18, 2000 Ontario residents who don't wish to risk a mugging in DC can visit the Worthington Tank Park at CFB Borden. Doesn't hold a candle to Aberdeen, but still some neat s**t. Mark VI/B Light Tank Matilda II Ram I and Ram II Valentine Churchill M4A1 Grizzly (RARE!!!) M5A1 Stuart Sherman V Crab (M4A4) Sherman III (M4A2) Grizzly with Firefly Turret Chaffee Hetzer Panther Wirbelwind T34-85 Centurion III Centurion ARV Bobcat APC prototype M60A3 T55 T72 M113 M13/40 Lynx That's just the fully tracked list.... lots of soft skinned, armoured cars, artillery. defintely worth checking out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trooper Posted May 19, 2000 Share Posted May 19, 2000 Aberdeen? Ha! *ptooey* The Mile of Tanks has some interesting specimins though. Until I can get to the Russian tank museum wherever the heck that is, and check it out, the award for best armor museum has to go to Bovington in the UK. I know people who have flown over from the US with the primary objective of seeing this collection. My group spent two days there, both days starting before 11am, which let's you know how much they have on display. I'll agree though, that Abrams really isn't all that intimidating a tank. Look's kinda cute, like a big Tonka toy. (It looks more intimidating in pictures). Now, the British, on the other hand, now how to build an intimidating looking vehicle. Challenger. *drool*. Or Chieftan when the US equivalent was Patton. Which do you think worried the Russians more...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Bailey Posted May 19, 2000 Share Posted May 19, 2000 Trooper, I agree the Challenger is a mean vehicle, as mean as the M-1. But the Russians were not worried about equipment, they were worried about the half million highly trained NATO soldiers standing in the Fulda Gap, the North German Plain, and throughout Western Europe. In this light, the 4 U.S. armored and mech divisions plus the Cav Regts., etc. certainly scared the Russians a whole lot more than the British Army of the Rhine (BAOR)... no question there. James. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanzfeld Posted May 19, 2000 Author Share Posted May 19, 2000 When I was at Aberdeen I did notice that they had plans inside the building to construct a huge shelter for all the tanks and field guns. I really dont know how realistic the plans are (they had one of those mini models of the "future Aberdeen" under glass). It would be nice if they could restore all those Panzers and protect them. You not allowed on the tanks but I jumped up anyway to have a look inside some of them and they are a mess. It would be a HUGE job to restore them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaffertape Posted May 19, 2000 Share Posted May 19, 2000 Sort of an add-on to Babra's note: There's a reasonable museum in Oshawa (or there was a few years back) just east of Toronto. I'll see if I can find a web-page. They have a running HVSS Sherman, a Chaffee and several other vehicles I cannot remember. The staff were absolutely top notch. Extremely knowledgable and friendly. I'll have a boo for that site now. GAFF Here it is: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/8716/index.html [This message has been edited by gaffertape (edited 05-19-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MantaRay Posted May 19, 2000 Share Posted May 19, 2000 Great site gaffe. Ray ------------------ When asked, "How many moves do you see ahead?", CAPABLANCA replied: "One move - the best one." MantaRays 5 Pages Hardcore Gamers Daily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babra Posted May 20, 2000 Share Posted May 20, 2000 Worthington Tank Park website: http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6209/ Anyone from the GTA wanna take a day trip up some time? I don't have a car... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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