Why don't they fire Tungsten

[Rocket Fodder]

Ok, I found these two quotes after searching the message board:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Sometimes the Sherman, esp. if it only has 1 or 2 tungsten rounds, won't use a tungsten round on its first shot if that shot isn't likely to be accurate. No point in wasting it if you don't have any to spare (liberal use of tungsten is rarely a luxury a Sherman commander can afford) - so it may use a regular AP to "find the range" and then use a tungsten.

Charles<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If you have the full game, read p58. In summary, the TAc AI will only use special ('tungsten') when normal ammo has failed and it is reasonbly sure of getting a hit. The fact that a normal (AP) round killed the Tiger shows that the TacAI was correct in not wasting a further round of T.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I set up a QB where I was defending and the AI was attacking. I (the allies) setup an ambush with two 76mm AT guns. One gun has 2t and the other has 6t.

The battle begins and low and behold the ambush is triggered with a Tiger tank about 200m from the two AT guns. Both have nice fields of fire, the Tiger is trapped.

So, I watch closely as each gun bounces several rounds of off the Tiger. A couple of rounds break apart on impact. I would estimate each gun hit the Tiger at least 3 times maybe 4 before it was knocked out.

Now, neither of the guns fired a Tungsten round. Why? If they have the range and see rounds bouncing off of the Tiger, why not fire a Tungsten round? Are they just curious to see if regula AP rounds will do the trick? Come on! This is war and you will DIE if you don't knock out that Tiger!

What's up with that?

[Maj. Bosco]

Do another search on tungsten and you'll find a bunch of threads on allied use (or lack thereof). Allied vehicles base the use of tungsten mostly off of the ratio of tungsten to AP they have and then secondly off of the threat they feel the takn poses to them. They'll fire tungsten rightawayquick at KTs and they'll hurl round after useless round of AP at a panter G until they're down to some magic ratio.

[This message has been edited by Maj. Bosco (edited 10-06-2000).]

[Rocket Fodder]

As you can see did do a search.

My point being it is stupid for any AT gun to not use tungsten if the first few rounds are harmless.

Believe me, if I'm standing behind that gun with a Tiger 200m away, I'm not going to hesitate to use my T.

In battle, the quick survive and the hesitant perish.

I'm sure in "real life" if an AT crew sees a Tiger roll up they would not think twice about using T. Am I wrong? That's what it's there for!

[Guest KwazyDog]

I think one thing that is important to remember here is that the 76mm at 200m has a pretty good chance of killing a Tiger with a standard AP round. If you check out the 76 vs Tiger stats the 76 at that range can pretty much penetrate any surface of the Tiger tank (of course, the 'angle of attack' against the Tiger changes this).

A similar scenario to what you mentioned has been bought up before, but the tank in question was a panther, which is somewhat harder to kill (from the right..ermm wrong anlges) than the Tiger. I will look into it further Rocket and mention the issue to Charles.

Dan

[This message has been edited by KwazyDog (edited 10-06-2000).]

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KwazyDog:

I think one thing that is important to remember here is that the 76mm at 200m has a pretty good chance of killing a Tiger with a standard AP round. If you check out the 76 vs Tiger stats the 76 at that range can pretty much penetrate any surface of the Tiger tank (of course, the 'angle of attack' against the Tiger changes this).

A similar scenario to what you mentioned has been bought up before, but the tank in question was a panther, which is somewhat harder to kill (from the right..ermm wrong anlges) than the Tiger. I will look into it further Rocket and mention the issue to Charles.

Dan

[This message has been edited by KwazyDog (edited 10-06-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

On a similar note I read a report from a 76mm Sherman TC yesterday, that had engaged a Panther at 100ft, the round impacted on the mantlet and failed to penetrate. later when the Panther was finaly KO'd they found the 76mm round had penetrated 2" into the mantlet but had done no damage.

In another report concerning the Jumbo's Sherman's front turret 'corner' armor an 75L70 round penetrated the '10"' corner armor and wounded 2 of the crew with the gunner being killed with 'half' his head blown off & the TC recieving shrapnel wounds. The Panther's 2nd round then penetrated the mantlet causing more damage.

Regards, John Waters

------------------

Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

[This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 10-06-2000).]

[Schugger]

During some testing I found out that it does exactly work like KwazyDog told:

If you have a good chance to kill a target ( for example 76mm gun against a Panther at 500 meters), no tungsten round was ever used.

Same range, same gun but a Jagdpanther as target and the first shot was always (!) a tungsten round. Not even a spotiing round was fired.

That makes a KT more vulnerable to a 76mm gun than a Panther ( if you still have those precious rounds).

[Snake Eyes]

I've heard of reports of rounds passing completely through turrets, causing no damage except for the crew's soiled underwear.

IMHO, BTS should tweak up a crew's willingness to use T and reduce its prevalence. I think there's too much of it anyway.

------------------

It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

[Maj. Bosco]

Key word: Another.

Here's the link to the thread. http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/010581.html If memory serves me correctly that thread also has links to threads. It's a good read on the subject. I also agree that there should be less tungsten for the 76's, though the same for TDs, and that the tank crews should fire when needed regardless of ratio, albiet with bracketing rounds (which are not used).

[Ben Galanti]

I think the key here is that CM seems to check kill probablilties when it chooses rounds. If it thinks an AP round will work, it will keep firing them. It does not seem to take into account the number of non-killing hits it has. So, even if it bounces 4 rounds off, it won't use a tungsten. It would be nice if the CM gunners would keep track of how many times they have scored a non-killing hit, and after some amount, just switch to tungsten no matter how much they had left...

[Snake Eyes]

I would venture to say that the less experience a crew has, the more likely they would be to use T.

------------------

It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

[ntg84]

Now if an AP round just goes into a tank without exploding like a HEAT round does, could it go in one side and out the other and into another tank? Like a 90mm AP going in one side of a Hotchkiss and out the other?

[Slapdragon]

There are some situations were their is a hugely small chance of a kill, but Tungsten is not used unless the T-AP ratio goes below a 2:1 Ratio. We tested almost 400 shots of an M4 against a Panther were the to hit was ok but the chance to kill was dismal (it is still in the thread back there exact details) and although the kill chance looked like 1-50 chance of kill (at least that was the ratio that resulted at 95% confidence and 5% ME) tungsten was used only 3 times. A higher ME test against a KT had the chance of using a T round much increased (bout 1/5 ) and TDs seemed to shoot more tungsten but this may have been a statistical anamoly.

[joeski]

How can you tell if your TD has T rounds? I see HE A S but no T.

Thanks

Joe

[Slapdragon]

You do not always get T rounds, it is random. You have a T if the TD has T rounds. Tests were done with TDs and Tanks that had the number of rounds selected for them.