Spook Posted January 6, 2000 Share Posted January 6, 2000 Take note that I've only mentioned for this week, as some of you CM vets have certainly seen more spectacular events. Anyhoo........ Reisberg, playing the American side. After two of my M4 Shermans crested over a hill in their approach to the town, an AT gun opened up on them about 10 seconds later. The type of gun was unknown due to the FOW settings. The first shot by the German gun missed. The second shot hit, but ricocheted off of the Sherman's front hull. The Sherman (commanded by the one veteran crew) returned fire and knocked out the gun, forcing the gun crew to flee. I assumed that the AT gun was a lower caliber if the Sherman could ricochet its shell. Well, at game's end, I could see instead that it was an 88 flak gun. Interesting chain of events. The first shot by a highly accurate 88 misses. The second hits, BUT bounces off!!! And when returning the favor, the M4 nails the gun (which was dug-in, and hiding in trees). This isn't a game model critique, it's all within the realm of the possible to me. I just don't think I'll roll a comparable set of "snake-eyes" like that again for a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted January 6, 2000 Share Posted January 6, 2000 Yeah... I was going to do the classic lay-low and ambush in Riesberg and had every body hid with ambush markers set. The first couple turns there was only the sound of Sherman engines and some infantry spotted. The first shot of the game was my in-town 88 taking an unsuccessful potshot at an M4 all the way down the road. The second shot of the game was the M4 sending the 88 to Walhalla. That's all- no 88, no ambush . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted January 6, 2000 Share Posted January 6, 2000 I had 4 direct hits on a Sherman 75+ in Riesberg... EVERY SINGLE ONE ricocheted. This is highly unlikely but possible... It sucks though I did lose a Panther to a 37mm popgun on an M8 Greyhound (hit at a critical weak point)... I also lost a King Tiger to a 75mm hit S**t happens ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killmore Posted January 6, 2000 Share Posted January 6, 2000 I have seen less probable things in CM. The 88 story is nothing compared to them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted January 6, 2000 Author Share Posted January 6, 2000 By all means, killmore, share with us. As stated in my first sentence, I am certain that other CM gamers have indeed seen stranger things. But not by me yet. So far, I'm giving Fionn the "Snake Eye" prize for the Panther being bagged by a 37mm gun. (Such a comparable thing did happen in real life, where in Italy-1944, a Stuart nailed a Panther in a close-range streetfight.) Such are the whims of war....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Christensen Posted January 6, 2000 Share Posted January 6, 2000 Strange things... in Last Defense, over the holidays, showing off Combat Mission to a brother, I once sent an M18 from the reverse slope of the hill on the left, across the hill, around through the gap in the woods, and ended up being able to move within 100 meters of the back of the Tiger. Perfect, you'd think. A moment to make Oddball proud. Yet the shot bounced off, the Tiger started to turn, and the M18 crew bailed. On the next turn, another M18 penetrated the gun mantlet at 600 meters. To compensate for that debacle, the next time we played we did actually manage to bag the Tiger with a a bazooka, two shots, at about 60 meters from the rear. Kevin Christensen Lawrence, KS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 6, 2000 Share Posted January 6, 2000 I was just wondering if it were possible to lose a Stug or a Tiger to 60mm mortars? I'm pretty sure I brewed up a Stug in Last Defence with my mortars. All three halftracks had been spotted on the right side of the map (Allied Point of View) and I start to call in mortar fire on where the halftracks were and one mortar where the infantry and Tiger were. I hit go and I heard a sound like like shooting a garbage can full of rocks. Of course I though I had got one of HT but I looked and there smoke coming out of what I had only identified as a tank. Unfortunatly I never actually found out what it was as I was just testing out some different hardware configurations and I didn't save it. I suppose it must have been a Stug as a Tiger would have been vulnerable to mortars. Any help would be appreciated! ------------------ Visit my Combat Mission for Mac page! Soon to have some exclusive screenshots courtesy of Madmatt! CAR_12.tripod.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hnh3 Posted January 6, 2000 Share Posted January 6, 2000 I had five straight ricochets off a Sherman before my 88 was popped. What really amazed me was that the 88 survived long enough to get five shots. I'm happy to say that these incidents are very few and far between (well within statistically acceptable bounds, IMO). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted January 7, 2000 Share Posted January 7, 2000 I have had an 88 survive the entire battle of Risenburg. Of course I lost the first one after it got one Sheran kill, the other one also got one, leaving the last two to Schrecks. I actually ran out of HE shells for the 88 as it was busy attacking American Infantry, AP shells do nothing against troops! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 7, 2000 Share Posted January 7, 2000 I'd have to check, but the Flak36 AA gun has a very good chance of bouncing off the front of a Sherman 75 + model. In fact, now that I look at the stats, a VERY good chance. Check out the stats I grabbed out of the game: Note that at any significant distance if the Sherman is hit straight on there isn't more than a lucky shot in Hell chance of actually penetrating the hull. Turret and sides are a whole 'nother story Steve [This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 01-06-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted January 7, 2000 Author Share Posted January 7, 2000 Colin: If you want to check next time if you think that a mortar bagged a tank, select the mortar unit and then press "Enter" to bring up the unit info box. On the upper right of this box, click the button saying "info/kills" and it'll switch the box display to show what the unit killed. But I'm not sure, with FOW rules on, if some uncertainty to "kills" is applied here. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 7, 2000 Share Posted January 7, 2000 Yup, good suggestion Ed. Uncertainty is a factor, but only if the KO'd unit was not fully identified. Colin, I don't think there is any chance the StuG was KO'd by the mortar. However, it could have caused some damage that made the crew bail. Most probable would be an engine/track hit with the main gun already damaged (or the other way around). Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted January 7, 2000 Share Posted January 7, 2000 Aye but most of my ricochets were turret hits... In fact I think at 4 of the 5 were turret hits. The worst thing about the Greyhound was that the Panther had hit it and immobilised it with its first shot through some trees at about 300 metres.. The Panther then proceeded to miss 3 or 4 times while the Greyhound peppered it with shots and got lucky once though. In the end I hunted that crew down with 2 StuGs and a Panther.. None of them lived to get their commendation Colin, What you killed was almost certainly a half-track which had merely been misidentified as a tank. CM allows your men to misidentify tanks... I got a rude shock in one game where I identified a few Shermans and an M10. Figuring I was up against 75s and a couple of 76s I drove my KT round the corner to engage at a range of about 150 metres.. Suddenly it turns out I was facing 2 M36B1 Jacksons with 90mm guns, a Sherman Jumbo 76, an M10, a Sherman 75 and 3 Stuarts... This was significantly more deadly than what I was expecting.. I got them all though even though I had to kill the last two Stuarts with HE shells when I ran out of AP shells. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted January 7, 2000 Share Posted January 7, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I actually ran out of HE shells for the 88 as it was busy attacking American Infantry, AP shells do nothing against troops! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I've had exactly the same experience, except that the AP was handy in persuading an M1919 to desist and move (don't know whether I caused any casualties). Shell holes appeared all around him and he didn't like it. I wonder if using AP on an MG isn't a little gamey, though. Would an 88 crew use AP on soft targets if they didn't know when the next AFVs were going to show up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted January 7, 2000 Share Posted January 7, 2000 They might use the wrong ammunition when they have to. If the HMG was firing on the gun position then their only option was to fire back or be attritioned down. Same thing with using HE shells on AFV's. Sure, your chance to kill a tank will be drastically less, but, it is better than just sitting there (you probably have a better chance at killing the commander with a HE shell than an AP). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 7, 2000 Share Posted January 7, 2000 If you are in a fixed position, with infantry coming up at you, what do you think you would do? I'd fire and keep the grunts away in hopes of keeping the gun safe. So IMHO it isn't gamey. A tank, on the other hand, should withdraw when it is no longer effective. But... nothing we can do about that Personally, if I think I have zapped all the enemy armor, and am out of MG and HE, I do withdraw my armor. Last thing I want is to have some twit knock out my expensive hardware while it is showboating around the battlefield Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted January 7, 2000 Share Posted January 7, 2000 I did not state the AP vs. MG case clearly. Here goes: The 88 in the corner of the map was not seriously threatened by the M1919 at the time, though it had thrown a few bursts toward the 88 (at what, 600+ meters?). Most of the MGs efforts were directed at the inhabitants of Riesberg. The 88 had had a good day against the Shermans and was just trying to help out the infantry, by zinging HE across the map at any visible American infantry. When the HE ran out (Americans in deep trouble by now, but still coming) I chambered up some AP and sniped at the MG. It worked. He left. So the 88 crew was not directly threatened, and was firing AP at infantry on my instructions. And the question stands- was that gamey? With maybe 10 rounds of AP left in the bag and nothing else, should they use them to engage non-threatening soft targets of opportunity? I did, but I was angry at the Americans about something else- it was spiteful, I admit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted January 7, 2000 Share Posted January 7, 2000 Well the AI is also less likely now to fire at wasteful targets.. Basically if there are infantry there the 88 would fire most of its AP at them since its better than sitting there watching BUT when it gets down to the last few rounds it will stop and conserve the last few for tanks. Also, in the gold version of the game the hide command works much better and I would simply tell the 88 crew to hide. they wouldn't fire at infantry but would re-crew the gun the instant a tank showed up and would fire on it. It works much better in the new builds than it does in that old beta. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 7, 2000 Share Posted January 7, 2000 What Fionn just said is correct, however what MarkIV is asking about is human ordered AP attacks on soft targets. I agree with you. The gun crew is not likely, in real life, to waste precious ammo on something that is non-threatening. So in that case the 88 falls into the same category as the tank I described above. Realistically it should withdraw from combat (in the 88s case remain silent) when it is no longer effective in its defined role. However, there really is no good way for CM to prevent such a thing, so in some cases it will happen. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 7, 2000 Share Posted January 7, 2000 Thanks for your help guys. I'm absolutly sure that it was not a half track i KO'd with mortars. I had AI Free to PLace units off in options and this was near the road in the german start position. Steve your probably right about causing the crew to bail but is there a chance that is Ko'd it? Thanks again. Colin Richardson ------------------ Visit my Combat Mission for Mac page! Soon to have some exclusive screenshots courtesy of Madmatt! CAR_12.tripod.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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