The enemy unseen

[Scorpion]

The situation is this...I have two infantry support AFVs advancing up a road. I have an infantry platoon on each flank, and one advancing with my AFV's. I have an armored car scouting ahead.

My AFV's pass a treeline, and start getting pounded by a low-caliber AT-gun (at least I think that is what it is...high ROF, no penetration, even with side armor hits) and some MG fire. In front of me is a wide open area, no cover. The armored car cannot spot the gun pounding me, nor can my infantry.

My question is this - should I back my AFV's up, out of range? Should I pop smoke? Charge my infantry across the meadow? I know they'll get mowed down by the MG's should they try it. Yet, I am at a loss as to what to do at this point. I have an unseen enemy, at least 500m away, perhaps 1000m, quite probably hidden on a wooded hill, with great LOS across this meadow.

Perhaps start pounding the surrounding hills with artillery?

Thanks for the advice!

-Scorp

[Loki]

Watch where the fire is coming from and either pound them with arty, or lay smoke for cover.If you advance be weary of infantry trying an ambush,he could be trying to pin you there or try to trick you into an ambush.

[Seanachai]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scorpion:

My AFV's pass a treeline, and start getting pounded by a low-caliber AT-gun (at least I think that is what it is...high ROF, no penetration, even with side armor hits) and some MG fire. In front of me is a wide open area, no cover. The armored car cannot spot the gun pounding me, nor can my infantry.

Thanks for the advice!

-Scorp<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not sure what you should do in general, but I'd be willing to bet that what's hitting your AFVs is one of those nasty little 20mm AA guns. Are you getting lots of ricochets as well? They seem relatively harmless, but they can get a track hit and immobilize you, and sometimes damage the gun. They're also hard to spot. If he can hit you, technically you should be able to get a LOS on him. Try using the LOS tool on whatever vehicle is being hit to check out likely spots for the gun to be situated (if you're otherwise unable to determine where fire's coming from, as Loki rightly suggests. I've had real trouble visually determining where the shells are coming from on some of the rapid rate guns), or use a combination of 'I think it's coming from there, what in that direction would have LOS to me, and then use arty or HE to see if you can disrupt their fun. A lot depends on what kind of ammo reserves you have with the artillery. This isn't tried and true advise, just a quick thought on possibilities.

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After witnessing exceptional bravery from his Celtic mercenaries, Alexander the Great called them to him and asked if there was anything they feared. They told him nothing, except that the sky might fall on their heads.

[This message has been edited by Seanachai (edited 08-01-2000).]

[Formerly Babra]

Hehehe.... Just from the description I know what scenario you're playing. Thus I will tender no advice. Do what feels right.

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It's a mother-beautiful bridge and it's gonna be THERE.

[Scorpion]

Thank you for the help! I am glad no spoilers were posted, I'm sorry I didn't make it clear - yes I'm playing a prefabricated scenario, and no I don't want specific spoilers

Let me try again, in a more general sense:

When coming under attack by unseen units, assuming that by viewing the movie you cannot tell which direction the attack is coming from, what should you do? The terrain ahead is wide open, covered by heavy machine guns, so infantry would get mowed down, especially since there is no specific target. By the area of armor the shots are hitting, there is an arc which covers three or more wooded hills upon which the at weapon could be hidden.

What is the best way to flush out hidden enemy troops? Assume artillery is limited...

Thanks!

-Scorp

[Fionn]

Simple...

Advance with recon half-squads 100 metres ahead of your infantry platoons. Keep your tanks 100 metres or so behind the nfantry platoons ( thus 200 behind the recon troops).

Once the enemy kills one of your recon half-squads deploy to destroy that enemy unit.

It's a tough business being a scout but that's how it was done.

PS. If I was you I'd take the fact that a 2cm FlaK is firing at my tank as a GREAT SIGN.. IF the enemy had any proper AT assets then they'd be firing at you and not just some pansy-ass 2cm FlaK. If I was you I'd read this as the time to accelerate and smash into his positions as fast as possible.

[guachi]

If you take Fionn's advice, don't expect your scouts to live long at all. Scouts are more fragile than an entire squad is, and at 100m ahead of the platoon it is likely out of command radius. I note that Fionn made no illusion that your scouts would survive.

If possible, try to have your scout move laterally across the likely disposition of the enemy and towards cover - If it comes under fire it might actually live. Also try and have your tanks with good LOS to possible enemy positions so they can be brought quickly under fire when the enemy shows. Shermans are fabulous in this role as they have lots of good HE and MGs handy.

To combat a scout patrol, I'd likely fire at it with the 20mm gun, or an onboard mortar or MG. Mortars can be quite tough to spot and an MG in a flank defense position is unlikely to give away your main defense position.

Jason

[Fionn]

Guachi is right.

Dead men are the currency of war.. Locating an enemy position quickly is worth 5 to 6 wounded or dead men. It's the cost of doing business.

The problem with Guachi's advice is that by moving laterally you are HIGHLY unlikely to trigger an ambush. All you'll do is waste time.

Listen, a good player isn't going to open his ambush until you are within 40 metres. ANY unit you have within 40 metres is dead so really you don't have a choice.. You can either barrage every likely hiding spot or send a half-squad to each and then launch a determined attack vs the hill where the scout half-squad gets fired on.

I think too many people are too squeamish about taking a few casualties in order to gain the necessary info. I've certainly seen this failing in PBEM opponents.

[guachi]

In an attack, ammo can sometimes be more important than men - especially for squads. If you think you might get in close combat it is important that your men have as much ammo as possible to unload at close range.

If you plan on doing ambushes with low quality troops, make sure that their LOS is as limited as possible. Green troops have a tendency to blow ambushes even if the ambush marker is 5m in front of them!

If you have AT guns in an ambush spot, try to protect them from infantry attack with at least a MG or something. Something like a 57mm AT gun with poor HE performance has no hope against infantry.

Man portable AT weapons are similar to AT guns. These poor guys have no small arms so they are easily taken out. Use them in teams - while one is being shot at by the ambushed tank the other may actually get off a shot. Even better, use them in groups of four and five - nothing like launching 15-20 rockets in a turn! Tank crews get pissed when they bail and the nearest target is often the offending and defenseless AT team. A half squad or HQ does wonders against pesky crews!

Fionn, the reason I thought about moving laterally was that if you moved straight at the ambush you might only trigger a small portion of it. An enemy squad annhilates your half squad and then retreats quickly using the withdraw command.

I'd also like to say that even if a player isn't squeamish about his own casualties it is difficult to know when sustaining casualties for a larger goal is appropriate. I haven't quite figured out good timing for scouting or a final assault yet. I suffered from this in my current game of 'Ham & Jam' - I've done a good job keeping my Brits alive and then squandered two squads because I hadn't sufficiently suppressed the enemy.

Jason