Juju Posted May 13, 2000 Share Posted May 13, 2000 AAAARRRGGGHHHH!!! possible spoiler I guess <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Okay, the basics are explained elsewhere. They're quite clear, but I still have a problem. I play the Valley as Germans, and both my mortars are in command of the Company Commander, and they haven't been moved at all. The problem is that the mortar's range is limited by the maximum weapon range of the spotting HQ. As soon as I target a spot OUT of the HQ's weapon range my mortars target a spot near the church instead, but hold their fire. I'm obviously doing something wrong here, but I can't figure out what. They're not much use that way. Any help would be much appreciated! [This message has been edited by Juju (edited 05-13-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted May 13, 2000 Share Posted May 13, 2000 Please edit that and lave a BIG spoiler space... You just give away quite a lot of unit info to someone who can extrapolate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juju Posted May 13, 2000 Author Share Posted May 13, 2000 Sorry Fionn. Since the spotting feature has been discussed in several other threads I didn't think it was much of a secret. I still need help however. The Ami's are almost upon me!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted May 13, 2000 Share Posted May 13, 2000 Hmm, Spoiler stuff not withstanding but I had the SAME problem but I didnt make the correlation to the HQ weapon range. Tell me JuJu if you target a unit or spot within the HQ pistol range do the Mortars then engage? Madmatt ------------------ If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ! And if it's NOT on CMHQ then its just GOT to be on CMHQ-ANNEX... CMHQ http://combathq.thegamers.net CMHQ-Annex http://cmhq.tzo.com Both now proud members of the Combat Mission WebRing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Username: Posted May 13, 2000 Share Posted May 13, 2000 I think you are assuming what I assumed. That the A0 company CO is "calling" in by using HIS target command. The mortor is still the targeting unit. So: 1. Check LOS from the "observer", in this case A0 next to the bunker. 2. Using Mortor unit, target the area/unit you wish to be mortored. Ignore any LOS blocks. The mortors will then fire on these targets as long as the spotter can see them. 3: Hints. DONT Give the observer a Hide command (even though hes next to a very obvious bunker). When laying out units prior to battle consider that the Arty Marker can be targeted by Indirect fire units so put it where the observer CANT see. It will give you better on board coverage. BIG HINT! Since you were such a bastard, Fionn obviously ignored you and you got nothing. Kiss his butt and fawn over whatever he says and totally accept it absolutely and you will get better results from him. Lewis [This message has been edited by Username: (edited 05-13-2000).] [This message has been edited by Username: (edited 05-13-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juju Posted May 13, 2000 Author Share Posted May 13, 2000 ***ACHTUNG SPOILERS*** <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madmatt: I didnt make the correlation to the HQ weapon range. Tell me JuJu if you target a unit or spot within the HQ pistol range do the Mortars then engage? Madmatt <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, by the time I tried that the US was already all over me, and I had to move them so it was a bit too late. Don't really know. Anyway, If I select a spot originating from my mortar to a target my HQ can see, but not shoot at (due to range) I DO get a red line. The mortar unit then turns to face target but does nothing else. If I double-click on the HQ (thus including the 2 mortars) and then target something WITHIN HQ's weaponrange, it could be working fine, but I don't know since I didn't want to waste precious ammo just to see if something works. I did not try this on an enemy unit since none were within range at the time. I do get orange targeting lines for the mortars this way. If I double-click on the HQ (thus including the 2 mortars) and then target something OUTSIDE HQ's weaponrange, I simply see "out of weapon range" and nothing happens at all. Thanks, Lewis, already tried the stuff you presented, but still no go... Another problem: As soon as US troops DID get into my HQ range, The reinforcement platoon's HQ came up from behind, and effectively "took over command" of my mortars from the company commander. Now they really were utterly useless, and I just HAD to move them. Is there a way to assign these mortars to a specific HQ? I WILL fawn, if needs be, but I DO NOT kiss butts! That's disgusting. Sorry for being a badass, Fionn. I promise, I'll never, EVER do it again. BTW You're good. Like the way you handle Bil in your current AAR. Er..., your hair looks nice... OKAY I'm very terribly extremely sorry, ohplease ohplease forgive me Fionn? huh? willya? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Sabot Posted May 13, 2000 Share Posted May 13, 2000 Ohhh boy! That last thread is a guarantee that this thread will be locked up, so i better get my question in quick! ******SPOILER ALERT (FWIW)******** I actually have two questions: 1) If i move the CO but keep the Mortars in the default position, can i still use him to direct indirect fire (assuming he is in command range to the mortars) 2) If i move the mortars in set-up, can they still target the arty marker without penalty? Thanx in advance ------------------ "I do like to see the arms and legs fly" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juju Posted May 13, 2000 Author Share Posted May 13, 2000 ***SPOILER AHEAD*** In a different/later thread than this MCH said the following: --------------------------- it worked for me.just target w/the HQ,then place the mortar target cursor exactly where the "line" from your HQ unit ends. targeting the "unit" dosen't work. just play around with it,you'll get it. easier with area fire. ------------------------------ So, Madmatt, it seems we cannot target a unit but we can target a spot. I'll have to try this, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted May 13, 2000 Share Posted May 13, 2000 Ignoring Usernames rather useless input again... I will be doing some more testing on this later today. I have heard that the indirect targeting seems to work much better when they target an area (terrain)and not a specific unit. You will notice that the Targetting line will STICK when they (mortar teams) target a spot (or unit) which is LOS of their command HQ but I have notced that they dont like to engage with fire if its a unit that they are targetting. Again, I will be doing some testign and post my results. Many have had success with this and others seem a little confused, hopefully I can bring some order out of this chaos. Good questions Black Sabot, I will see if I can test that too! Madmatt ------------------ If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ! And if it's NOT on CMHQ then its just GOT to be on CMHQ-ANNEX... CMHQ http://combathq.thegamers.net CMHQ-Annex http://cmhq.tzo.com Both now proud members of the Combat Mission WebRing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juju Posted May 13, 2000 Author Share Posted May 13, 2000 Thank you, Madmatt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Username: Posted May 13, 2000 Share Posted May 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Juju: ***ACHTUNG SPOILERS*** Anyway, If I select a spot originating from my mortar to a target my HQ can see, but not shoot at (due to range) I DO get a red line. The mortar unit then turns to face target but does nothing else. If I double-click on the HQ (thus including the 2 mortars) and then target something OUTSIDE HQ's weaponrange, I simply see "out of weapon range" and nothing happens at all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thats wierd. In the second case above I can see why. Double clicking is including the HQ unit as a firer (I suppose). I assume the HQ has a control line to mortor? The mort. doesnt have an LOS also in the first case? The area is not within minimum range of course? My experience is that if the HQ has LOS/firer doesnt than just select the mort. and target an area. If the HQ can't see you wont get a fire line. If he can then you do. Its that simple. I never target units now that it is mentioned only areas. Like MM says maybe some experimenting is needed. Sorry you are missing out on one of the coolest new toys in the game. It makes setting up for defensive battles as much fun as playing. Lewis PS It seems you can move the HQ and direct the morts from the new position. I would guess yes to BS's second question. I think you cant move the morts from the origional position YOU put them in. But I might be giving useless info again. (at least I try) [This message has been edited by Username: (edited 05-13-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted May 13, 2000 Share Posted May 13, 2000 Juju, Your comments as regards fawning are entirely unnecessary and unwelcome. I merely don't have unlimited time on my hands to answer every minor question on the forum and thus, when I read your question, I didn't have time to explain the entire spotting system to you since I was going out soon. There was nothing in your initial post which was impolite but I just wanted to make sure you knew to put in some spoiler space. Also there is no need to get into the play-acting present in your third post. You're merely playing into Lewis' hands when you do that. I don't require fawning but neither will I stand for abusive language. Do neither and we'll get along just fine . ------------------ Ask me politely and you'll get a complete and polite response. Act impolitely and I'll ignore you forever. Your choice. This sig is so NO-ONE can say they haven't been warned about my stance on this subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Sabot Posted May 13, 2000 Share Posted May 13, 2000 Matt, If by chance this thread gets locked, can you e-mail me the results? I'd test it myself but i'm stuck in a vicious PBEM and my mortars are wiped out. Thanx Matt ------------------ "I do like to see the arms and legs fly" [This message has been edited by Black Sabot (edited 05-13-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juju Posted May 13, 2000 Author Share Posted May 13, 2000 Thanks for the reply, Fionn. I know your very busy, and I surely didn't mean to make fun of you. I'm truly sorry for that. Let's just enjoy this great game (that is after all why we all come here), and leave it at that, okay? To head off future, erm, "situations" like this I suggested a solution in another thread. hopefully other come up with related answers too. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted May 13, 2000 Share Posted May 13, 2000 Ok, let me throw up (??? err bad choice of words I guess) my preliminary results of testing. Just AREA TARGET with the mortar teams! You really dont need to do ANYTHING with the HQ unit other make sure he has a nice spotting site and is close enough to remain in control of the mortar teams. When you target with the mortar teams the targeting line will not STICK if they cant shell the area. I tested this earlier and gave one mortar team an area fire order and another a specific enemy target which were both NOT in their LOS but WERE in the LOS of the HQ. The area fire commanded mortar immediatley engage while the mortar team with the specific target did not. I have passed these results on to the Beta Team and Steve and Charles and we will wait to see what they have to say. I have an idea but I will wait until they get back to me on this... Madmatt p.s. SO just AREA TARGET for indirect fire, works every time! ------------------ If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ! And if it's NOT on CMHQ then its just GOT to be on CMHQ-ANNEX... CMHQ http://combathq.thegamers.net CMHQ-Annex http://cmhq.tzo.com Both now proud members of the Combat Mission WebRing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mch Posted May 13, 2000 Share Posted May 13, 2000 USERNAME: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>select the mort. and target an area. If the HQ can't see you wont get a fire line. If he can then you do. Its that simple. I never target units now that it is mentioned only areas. Like MM says <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Lewis,were you getting a "sight blocked" response but they were firing anyway? or,were you getting a blue line? ------------------ "you got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, know when to run........" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 13, 2000 Share Posted May 13, 2000 Mortar stuff: 1. Mortars can AREA fire without LOS, provided they are "in command" from an HQ that does have LOS to the area fire location. Whether a mortar has moved during the scenario does not affect this. 2. A mortar can AREA fire at (or very near) a Target Reference Point (TRP) without LOS, *and* does not need an HQ to do this, but cannot have moved during the scenario. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Username: Posted May 13, 2000 Share Posted May 13, 2000 I was getting a sight blocked but they were firing normally. To be absolutely clear, they were out of LOS and the targeting line showed as much but since the HQ HAD an LOS the indirect weapon fired normally. I tested and made sure that if the HQ can't see then you dont get indirect fire. If he can then you get fire. Doesnt seem to matter if he is Hiding or not. Its true about not being able to indirect onboard against units only areas. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted May 13, 2000 Share Posted May 13, 2000 1) If i move the CO but keep the Mortars in the default position, can i still use him to direct indirect fire (assuming he is in command range to the mortars) YES! And you can even MOVE the mortar team too, they can still indirect fire (AREA FIRE ONLY REMEMBER) even if they moved around, just be sure to maintain proper C&C! 2) If i move the mortars in set-up, can they still target the arty marker without penalty? YES! Movements during setup are considered to have occured prior to the actual battle so you are fine there. BUT if you move once the battle has begun it will not fire at the TRP UNLESS (and I just figured this out a minute ago!) the TRP is within LOS of the mortar teams HQ unit. In that case though its just normal indirect fire and not the more accurate PRE-PLOTTED fire that is represented by the TRP. WOW, what a game!!! ------------------ If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ! And if it's NOT on CMHQ then its just GOT to be on CMHQ-ANNEX... CMHQ http://combathq.thegamers.net CMHQ-Annex http://cmhq.tzo.com Both now proud members of the Combat Mission WebRing [This message has been edited by Madmatt (edited 05-13-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted May 13, 2000 Share Posted May 13, 2000 Another little tidbit of knowledge. If your HQ unit decides to move during the turn in which you have indirect mortar fire going on, the teams will continue to fire up to the moment that C&C is broken or when the HQ loses LOS to the target area. They also maintain a target 'lock' to the area they were shelling before (Area fire line still drawn). As soon as the commander regains C&C to the mortar teams AND he has a valid LOS they will resume the barrage... VERY COOL STUFF! Madmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mch Posted May 13, 2000 Share Posted May 13, 2000 Ok. this thread(well,parts of it ) would be well suited for a README addendum. ------------------ "you got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, know when to run........" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Username: Posted May 13, 2000 Share Posted May 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madmatt: BUT if you move once the battle has begun it will not fire at the TRP UNLESS (and I just figured this out a minute ago!) the TRP is within LOS of the mortar teams HQ unit. In that case though its just normal indirect fire and not the more accurate PRE-PLOTTED fire that is represented by the TRP. WOW, what a game!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> What if the Mrtr is direct firing against the marker? Is it more accurate? How did you figure out that it wasnt more accurate when the HQ was directing the fire? Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted May 13, 2000 Share Posted May 13, 2000 What if the Mrtr is direct firing against the marker? Is it more accurate? I would assume so, that would probably be AS accurate as possible I would imagine... How did you figure out that it wasnt more accurate when the HQ was directing the fire? You mean other than consulting the ultra secret non-disclosable Uber-Documents that I have in my possession? It wasn't more accurate because it really wasn't targeting the TRP. Once a mortar team moves they lose all the benefits of the TRP at all. If the HQ had not been there the team would not have been able to even engage that area at all. The other team (the one that had not moved) was able to engage quicker and just by watching the fall of the shells (subjective I admit) it was obvious that their pattern was tighter. Madmatt ------------------ If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ! And if it's NOT on CMHQ then its just GOT to be on CMHQ-ANNEX... CMHQ http://combathq.thegamers.net CMHQ-Annex http://cmhq.tzo.com Both now proud members of the Combat Mission WebRing [This message has been edited by Madmatt (edited 05-13-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted May 13, 2000 Share Posted May 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mch: Ok. this thread(well,parts of it ) would be well suited for a README addendum. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Already on top of that! I have spoken to Charles (consulted the Oracle is the correct parlance actually) and here is what he originally said on WHY indirect targeting of units didn't work: (THE WORDS ABOUT TO BE UTTERED ARE FROM CHARLES HIMSELF! NO ONE WILL BE ADMITTED DURING CHARLES'S RESPONSE. WE WILL SELL YOU A WHOLE SEAT BUT YOU'LL ONLY NEED THE EDGE!) It's intentional that we don't allow indirect fire against units, but do allow indirect "area fire". The reason is that units can move. If we allow indirect against MOVING units, that's totally unrealistic. The problem here is that we also allow the targeting of units which are currently out of LOS, the idea being that if the unit comes INTO LOS some time during that turn, your unit will give "priority" targeting to that unit. So I can't just make a blanket prevention here. UPDATE from Madmatt: This whole procedure is being reveiwed to see if it can be a tad more inuitive. I will post the results of this review once they are made known to me. No need to post with ideas as its already between one of two options that are both rather easy to implement. It may just be a matter of getting this info out to the players or as was sugegsted above a mention in the Readme file... Thanks to everyone who was commented on this feature as it has opened up a whole new element of CM for me and I am sure others that were unclear as to how best utilize mortars in the indirect role! Madmatt ------------------ If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ! And if it's NOT on CMHQ then its just GOT to be on CMHQ-ANNEX... CMHQ http://combathq.thegamers.net CMHQ-Annex http://cmhq.tzo.com Both now proud members of the Combat Mission WebRing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Username: Posted May 13, 2000 Share Posted May 13, 2000 Do TRPs benefit off-board artillery fire whether the FO has moved or not? I would guess that it shouldnt matter because the battery hasnt moved. I would assume the levels of accuracy are: MTR direct fire against TRP with direct LOS MTR direct fire with LOS MTR indirect fire with TRP MTR indirect fire with HQ BTW since this thread is called German Mortar its assumed US can do the same with 60mm, 81mm but I have tried using the 150mm inf gun and assume that only MTR will be able to use this feature? Thanks Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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