Col Deadmarsh Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 I'm in a PBEM game right now where I have a rifle squad in a two story building who have been hiding for quite some time now from the armor in the area by going to the safe side of the building. During the last turn, my opponent moved his heavy tank into LOS of this squad and open fired. I of course didn't know there was a danger present and so I haven't had time to get them out of the area yet. Unfortunately, by the end of the "manic minute" my team had sat there and taken incoming fire from a firefly without trying to get themselves out of the building and now they are half a squad and panicking because of all the shots they took. Shouldn't some tweaking be done to the AI to fix this problem? I mean, how realistic is it for a squad to sit there next to the window and wait to get blown to bits by a tank? In real life, the squad would at the very least move to a protected (safe) part of the building if not exit the building entirely as it would soon come crashing down. I see this as something that should be addressed in the next patch. Let's have the AI help us out a little since we only have control over our men every minute. Logical decisions like getting out of the way of danger should be put into the game, even it means disobeying orders. ------------------ Everything in moderation...except CM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamski Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 It doesn't take much for a squad getting nailed to get PINNED. They won't move in this case quick enough not to get a couple more hits on them before they panic. I think it's pretty realistic. Imagine a tank hitting your building. Would you get up and run right away. I'd be chewing dust! -Ski ------------------ "The Lieutenant brought his map out and the old woman pointed to the coastal town of Ravenoville........" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailor Malan Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh: Shouldn't some tweaking be done to the AI to fix this problem? I mean, how realistic is it for a squad to sit there next to the window and wait to get blown to bits by a tank? In real life, the squad would at the very least move to a protected (safe) part of the building if not exit the building entirely as it would soon come crashing down. I see this as something that should be addressed in the next patch. Let's have the AI help us out a little since we only have control over our men every minute. Logical decisions like getting out of the way of danger should be put into the game, even it means disobeying orders. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I don't agree. Your squad were probably as safe staying put, as running. In addition, infantry moving position every time they are 'in danger' would very rapidly undo all your defensive positions, and is a sign of poor troop quality. Imagine if a guaranteed way of causing infantry covering the approaches of a building to move was to fire a shell at them. You could then walk infantry up to the defensive line with impunity. Also, don't forget, they are not 'sitting by the window', they are occupying that sector of the building. I have seen squads take lots of shells without loss, even though the tank was firing in the right part of the building. Troops should only wantonly disobey orders if their morale dictates it (seeking cover etc). The game models this quite well, with the progression from alerted, taking cover, right through to routed. If you want troops to avoid danger, try playing with green troops! (But they usually get themselves into more trouble) (Just my thoughts!) ------------------ The conception of such a plan was impossible for a man of Montgomery's innate caution...In fact, Montgomery's decision to mount the operation ...[Market Garden] was as startling as it would have been for an elderly and saintly Bishop suddenly to decide to take up safe breaking and begin on the Bank of England. (R.W.Thompson, Montgomery the Field Marshall) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 Also, the engine has the squad do a moral check before attacking, and they wont attack on their own unless they have a good chance of nailing the tank. That means they need a rifle grenade or Panzerfaust, and a "morale check", or a good chance to do the job with grenades. A leader in direct contact almost assure that the unit will attack the tank. A unit that has been paniced will almost never attack a tank. If your Morale goes down lower than around 50 infantry become reluctant to take on a tank. There are some AI problems: what I call the "dumb tank syndrome" (which may actually be the tank panic-ing more than any flaw) which sometimes effects tanks, and the tank choice of tungsten, but this does not seem to be an AI problem: it actually seems more like a nice feature of the AI. Not every unit has the gumption to billy a tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted September 17, 2000 Author Share Posted September 17, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I don't agree. Your squad were probably as safe staying put, as running. In addition, infantry moving position every time they are 'in danger' would very rapidly undo all your defensive positions, and is a sign of poor troop quality. Imagine if a guaranteed way of causing infantry covering the approaches of a building to move was to fire a shell at them. You could then walk infantry up to the defensive line with impunity.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, I hear what you're saying. It's important for your troops to hold their positions so the opposing infantry can't advance into those positions. I think though that the AI should do a common sense check. If a stuart is firing up at you, it makes sense for your team to decide to stay and try to hold the position. If though, that a firefly or similar tank with a 17 lb gun or a Tiger with an 88 is pounding your team, that team should do the smart thing and get out! Bottom line...the AI should decide whether or not it is safe for your team to be in the building for an entire minute when being hit by an opposing tank. Anybody else got some opinions on this? ------------------ Everything in moderation...except CM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoePrivate Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Bottom line...the AI should decide whether or not it is safe for your team to be in the building for an entire minute when being hit by an opposing tank. Anybody else got some opinions on this?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It does already, if things get too hot(morale) then the squad will bugger out. As for 'an entire minute', well that isn't very long...you as the commander have the squad there for a reason, if the situation becomes untenable then it is your decision to take the necessary steps or not. The game would become an exercise in frustration if the AI starting doing as you suggest. My thoughts, 2 cents worth to you, priceless to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 Colonel_Deadmarsh wrote: > I think though that the AI should do a common sense check. Unfortunately the AI does not possess the power of common sense. It would be nigh-on impossible to program the AI to work out what to do under volatile circumstances, especially when it doesn't know what you'd want it to do. On the whole, I think it does a good job - and when something bad happens that you have no control over, that (in general) is a good representation of reality. David ------------------ They lost all of their equipment and had to swim in under machine gun fire. As they struggled in the water, Gardner heard somebody say, "Perhaps we're intruding, this seems to be a private beach." [This message has been edited by David Aitken (edited 09-17-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 The Stuart with its fast ROF and endless HE rounds (in real life they had the only cannister rounds and were deadly to exposed troops) is almost as deadly as Infantry as the 76 and 88 armed tanks. Thus is has an absurdly high price: for good reason -- used right the thing is a killer. For Infantry, the safeest thing they can do is stay down. You have to tell them to crawl away or run, because it exposes them to more danger, not less -- in the short run. When they break, they get killed in droves. I think the Infantry seem well modelled. Screwing with them will make Infantry to likely to abandon a safe defence line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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