Guest Scott Clinton Posted June 11, 2000 Share Posted June 11, 2000 <HTML> <FONT SIZE=3> ...the figure stinks of WW II propaganda, IMHO. Did they count Kübelwagens into the bag too? For comparison, Michael Wittman...</P> </DIR> </DIR> PLEASE! Not to 'ruffle the feathers' of all the Wittman lovers here...but Mr. Wittman was built by nazi propaganda. There was no better propagandist than the Nazis and Wittman's legend was crafted by the best. I once heard that they lined up captured Soviet BT 'tanks' and vehicles just so he could use them for target practice and get 'credit' for their kills.</P> </FONT></BODY> </HTML> ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted June 11, 2000 Share Posted June 11, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scott Clinton: <HTML> <FONT SIZE=3> ...the figure stinks of WW II propaganda, IMHO. Did they count KŸbelwagens into the bag too? For comparison, Michael Wittman...</P> </DIR> </DIR> PLEASE! Not to 'ruffle the feathers' of all the Wittman lovers here...but Mr. Wittman was built by nazi propaganda. There was no better propagandist than the Nazis and Wittman's legend was crafted by the best. I once heard that they lined up captured Soviet BT 'tanks' and vehicles just so he could use them for target practice and get 'credit' for their kills.</P> </FONT></BODY> </HTML> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That's what I meant Scott - if Nazi propaganda gave Wittman 138 kills in five years of war against hordes of Russian tanks, then I find it difficult ot believe that any US tanker can score 258 in 83 days against comparatively fewer German AFVs. ------------------ Andreas The powers of accurate perception are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted June 11, 2000 Share Posted June 11, 2000 "Don't Mess with Texas" = "Bekämpfen Sie nicht Texas" Well, at least I think that's what it means. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted June 11, 2000 Share Posted June 11, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>That's what I meant Scott - if Nazi propaganda gave Wittman 138 kills in five years of war against hordes of Russian tanks, then I find it difficult ot believe that any US tanker can score 258 in 83 days against comparatively fewer German AFVs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Wasn't the U.S. score based on all kinds of armored vehicles, not just tanks? If Wittman's score was only tanks, that could easily explain the discrepancy. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Shaw Posted June 11, 2000 Share Posted June 11, 2000 I tend to have my doubts as well. That averages out to just over 3 AFV kills EACH DAY for 83 days. That sounds highly unlikely. I don't doubt the ability or courage of Sgt. Pool or his crew, but a contemporary copy of Yank magazine isn't a very credible source. I'm reminded of a guy who brought a PT Boat to one of our naval games that did 80 knots. His source? A 1944 copy of Life Magazine that said so! Disinformation didn't start with the KGB. Joe ------------------ "I don't want them brave, I want them dead!" Thomas J. (Stonewall) Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted June 11, 2000 Share Posted June 11, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: "Don't Mess with Texas" = "Bekämpfen Sie nicht Texas" Well, at least I think that's what it means. Charles<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Not bad - "Legt Euch nicht mit Texas an!" oder "Lass die Finger von Texas" would be my suggestions. I understand that they are counting armoured AFVs (Pool) and tanks (Wittman). Still seems too high for me, in 83 days. We'll never know though. ------------------ Andreas The powers of accurate perception are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murx Posted June 11, 2000 Share Posted June 11, 2000 I can only laugh at US body/vehicle counts. They got more Tiger II kills in their books then there were ever produced ( I read something on 1500-1600 counted Tiger II shots - maybe every US tank that came by a wreck shot at it and claimed the kill . And for bodycounts I remember some bad things (maybe not even half of that is true, OK) on the Vietnam War ... And the long text on pool: He used to sit up there in the turret - you could tell Pool anywhere by the way he sat up there, more out than in! Yeah, thats a dumb one, should have died by the first sniper that came around ... If some people here know PanzerTactics (and I guess there are some here) they will know better. So another tank of his platoon got a Panzerschrek hit - thats when you move too fast and too close on the enemy There is a German Panzermann saying : "Waldesrand zieht Scheisse an!" meaning the edge of a forrest draws **** err, danger CM makes me really!!! happy cause it is the first game that implies real PanzerTactics (that is tactics that are teached in most militaries). I was fascinated when my 2 Sherman 105mm smoked themselves and drawed back when they got in range by the German Panther at VoT. Even more when my Sherman 75mm turned his hull to the Schrekteam to maximize his armor and weapons bearing. The programmers must have read the books. (maybe Guderians Panzertacics guidelines ?). The most interesting fact on Panzertactics is that they haven't really changed since German ínvented' it and realized that tanks are a weapon of their own and not only support for infantry. OK, enough murx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted June 12, 2000 Share Posted June 12, 2000 I think the vehicle kill number is certainly inflated. I have also read that sometimes kills for the unit were tallied up and bestowed upon the unit commander. And compare this with Creighton Abrams. They were credited with knocking out 40 tanks in about 180 days of combat, starting with the target rich environment of St. Lo. And Abrams is thought to be one of the US' best tank aces. The number credited to Pool is not even in the same league as Abrams, which raises my suspicions. I do not doubt that Pool cracked way more than his fair share of enemy vehicles, but I doubt it was more than perhaps half of the stated score. And that, by *any* means of assessment, is worthy of the highest military honors and historical praise. So while I doubt the number cited, that in no way shape or form reduces my respect and admiration for Pool as a warior and leader. Other notoriously overcounted kills came from the Luftwaffe, which counted (someone correct me if I am wrong) kills on the ground as being the same as those from the air. At the very least, the Germans went up against a lot of totally outdated equipment often crewed by pilots with a few dozen hours of flying time. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted June 12, 2000 Share Posted June 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: Other notoriously overcounted kills came from the Luftwaffe, which counted (someone correct me if I am wrong) kills on the ground as being the same as those from the air. Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> From Col. Stacey's 'The Canadian Army 1939-45', Ottawa 1948 Footnote on page 21: "Examination of German documents has indicated that at the height of the battle [of Britain] the R.A.F. overestimated the enemy's losses. From 24th August to 6 September, for instance, the estimate was 643 aircraft destroyed; the actual number was 378, plus 115 damaged (the Germans at the time admitted the loss of 243.)" That is an overestimation of about 33% (accepting damaged as destroyed). The German side just admitted about 50% of their losses. Whether it was for propaganda or other reasons, I believe all of these figures, no matter who they come from, have to be treated with extreme caution unless verified by enemy documentation. But I am abolutely sure that not a single pilot had their personal kill figure reduced after the war for this reason. And why should they? ------------------ Andreas The powers of accurate perception are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:USERNAME: Posted June 12, 2000 Share Posted June 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scott Clinton: [bI once heard that they lined up captured Soviet BT 'tanks' and vehicles just so he could use them for target practice and get 'credit' for their kills.</P> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thats really a great contribution there Scott. In that vein, a little birdy once told me a german shot down a B17 with his kampfpistole.. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted June 12, 2000 Share Posted June 12, 2000 "Thats really a great contribution there Scott." What do you want a bib? I know it's nowhere near as clever as the drivel you spew forth. Perhaps if I get slobbering drunk before I post the next time I will be able to match your 'wit'? ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:USERNAME: Posted June 12, 2000 Share Posted June 12, 2000 Well as long as you admit that you are trying to be "funny" Ill drop it. Whittman was in recon and then in the sturmarty before he went into tigers. He killed tanks for years and didnt have to impress people by blowing up trucks with garbage can covers tied over the radiators.. Lewis [This message has been edited by :USERNAME: (edited 06-12-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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