Uri Posted November 28, 2000 Share Posted November 28, 2000 Combat Mission is a great game, no doubt. It's very focused on realism, very fun to play etc. BECAUSE it's so realistic, one thing really bothers me. In hand to hand combat, shouldn't casulty rate be higher? I once had two squads or more fighting in the same house, and their fight was long. I can't imagine 24 armed men in the same room, fighting for over 60 seconds! Maybe it simulated two rooms, if that were the case, why did my soldiers die one by one, two by two? It should've been one really bloody encounter (when one squad tries to enter the other room). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.Tankersley Posted November 28, 2000 Share Posted November 28, 2000 [chants] Abstraction, abstraction, abstraction! Buildings are considered to have walls, rooms, stairs, furniture and all that other nifty "building-stuff" although they are depicted graphically as big open areas. So both squads are probably receiving the benefit of building cover. In addition, just because you are in the same building as an enemy squad doesn't necessarily mean you can see them to shoot at them. Picture two rooms connected by a hallway, with one squad in each room. Would you really want to be the first guy to go down that hallway? There's probably a lot of "Mexican standoff" type situations going on. Grenades thrown blind, shooting through walls, or just hugging the floor and trying to be quiet so the enemy will think you've gone. It's not unheard of in urban combat for opposing forces to occupy different portions of the same building for extended periods. ------------------ Leland J. Tankersley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Brian Posted November 28, 2000 Share Posted November 28, 2000 Well, I can think of the hand to hand accounts from Stalingrad. Hand to Hand can go on for more than a minute. Heck, sometimes they keep throwing grenades back and forth for a good 10 minutes. Just depends if Roger Clemens in aiming for their heads or not. ------------------ Doc God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Posted November 28, 2000 Share Posted November 28, 2000 Well, I can think of the hand to hand accounts from Stalingrad. Hand to Hand can go on for more than a minute. Heck, sometimes they keep throwing grenades back and forth for a good 10 minutes. Just depends if Roger Clemens in aiming for their heads or not. Inside a building, sure, OK I can see it. In a recent game against the AI, I watched a tank pull up and MG my squad in scattered trees from 5 meters. the squad hung in for 2 turns. You'd think at that distance the exchange mught last a few seconds MAX before my guys were obliterated, captured, or hightailing out-elite or green. While we at it, BTS, how about some new animations for close combat in CM2? They get the job done but the current animations are as sedate as a tea party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uri Posted November 28, 2000 Author Share Posted November 28, 2000 quote: Picture two rooms connected by a hallway, with one squad in each room. Would you really want to be the first guy to go down that hallway? As I said, if that were the case, one can expact NO casulties atl all. And then, massive damage (the minute one squad decides to break in). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.Tankersley Posted November 28, 2000 Share Posted November 28, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Uri: As I said, if that were the case, one can expact NO casulties atl all. And then, massive damage (the minute one squad decides to break in).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I don't know about that. I think that frenzied "storm the other room at all costs" behavior would be pretty rare. But that's not to say there wouldn't be any casualties. The troops would probably do a lot of firing blind, tossing grenades around corners, maybe get creative and sending somebody outside to shoot in the window of the other squad's room. As I said, none of this is explicitly modeled; instead, it's all abstracted. Sometimes your CM troops will sit there trading close combat blows for quite a while, and sometimes it will all be over in seconds. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Alexander: In a recent game against the AI, I watched a tank pull up and MG my squad in scattered trees from 5 meters. the squad hung in for 2 turns. You'd think at that distance the exchange mught last a few seconds MAX before my guys were obliterated, captured, or hightailing out-elite or green.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'd expect that sometimes it would be over in seconds. But on the other hand, with a tank 5-15 meters away spraying MG fire around, I'd tend to hug the dirt and get behind a tree or root or rock or whatever was handy. If I can get to a safe position, I'm not likely to move until the lead:air ratio in my immediate vicinity drops down to something approaching normalcy. Tanks are great for suppressing folks, but once infantry goes to ground it can be hard to root them out. ------------------ Leland J. Tankersley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maj. Bosco Posted November 29, 2000 Share Posted November 29, 2000 If it's hand to hand combat, life or death, I bet that even I could hang in there for a minute. Remember that very close up there wouldn't be as much concentrated gunfire. At range the whole squad can open up on the whole other squad but in a building it's usually going to be one or two guys against one or two guys in any given engagement. Of course, we're mostly just talking out of our asses here. The real answer is that close combat is abstracted and that abstraction is meant to be as realistic in it's outcome as possible. IRL squads didn't usually kill each other instantly. Firefights usually lasted a lot longer than most people think. A couple of months back we had a few people who had been involved in and/or studied engagements of the type CM models and they said that CM abbreviated everything. As for the tank, remember that even though sections of the board look like pool tables they're at least 75% cover (unless they're road in which case your squad would be toast in seconds). 5 meters is ~15 feet. 15 feet away, firing at an area at least 20 meters square, at a bunch of guys who are hiding in every depression and behind every rock available. I can see that lasting a couple of minutes. Just my two cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russellmz Posted November 29, 2000 Share Posted November 29, 2000 put 12 quake guys in a building. they dont care about casualties since it is a game. it would take about 30sec for them to wipe each other out. now factor in desire to live, no rockets, just bouncy grenades and handheld semi-auto weapons and maybe a few fully auto weapons. ------------------ "They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush "They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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