WWII unresolved misteries #1

[Marty]

While perusing the book I mentioned above, came across this message on p292, which may answer some of the questions raised in this thread. I'm surprised more has not been mentioned about it. The caption to this message reads (in part):

This message, stripped of all communications data but following the form of the US Navy's intercept messages, was published in 1968 in a book written by Vice Admiral Homer N. Wallin. ...It indicates that Yamamoto broke radio silence and directed Nagumo to advance into Hawaiian waters...

----------The Message ------------

25 November 1941

From: CinC Combined Fleet (Admiral Yamamoto)

To: First Air Fleet (Pearl Harbor Attack Force)

The task force, keeping its movement strictly secret and maintaining close guard against submarines and aircraft, shall advance into Hawaiian waters, and upon the very opening of hostilities shall attack the main force of the United States Fleet in Hawaii and deal it a mortal blow. The first air raid is planned for X-day (exact date to be given by a later order).

Upon completion of the air raid, the task force, keeping close coordination and guarding against the enemy's counterattack, shall speedily leave the enemy waters and then return to Japan.

Should the negotiation with the United States prove successful, the task force shall hold itself in readiness forthwith to return and reassemble.

-------------- End of Message ---------

I don't know for what context Admiral Wallin was quoting the message in his 1968 book. He might have been saying something to the effect of "This message was transmitted before the attack, but was in the Japanese Naval Military Code we couldn't read and it was only broken afterwards" Of course, if that's the premise, and if, according to this book, we could read the code, then that certainly lights up the horizon pretty brightly!

The more I page through this book the more interesting it all becomes.

[jackhammer]

this book sounds like most books written on jfk's assasination. they take old material and rehash it,misquote people,take "evidence" out of context or repeat phony "sources". in regards to the "message" adm yammamoto sent to nagumo,no message like that was ever sent! instead a code phase was sent-"climb mount niitaka"-this meant "attack as planned". so why would yammamoto sent a long meaasage to nagumo telling him to do exactley what the code phrase did? this book sounds alo like john tolands book "infamy" in which he "revealed" all kinds of secret messages to prove fdr new. almost all of what he wrote has been debunked.

[Bullethead]

Spook said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If I was a criminal prosecutor, I would have a far easier time to get a guilty verdict on Clinton for his alleged misdeeds than to charge FDR for treason based on the information that's presented so far. The defending attorney would shred my case with the kinds of inquiries I have posed earlier.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, this ain't a court of law, it's the Court of Public Opinion, so the burden of proof and Rules of Evidence are more informal But since you bring this subject up, consider this:

1. The "prosecution" has presented a number of lines of evidence (known pre-war political conduct of FDR, known FDR motivations as to the USSR, intercepted messages from US and Allied codebreakers, etc.) that point directly to FDR's knowledge of the Pearl Harbor attack well in advance. FDR's conduct alone is sufficient to prove the mens rea of intent were this a real criminal case, and the codebreaking evidence is the "smoking gun" of the actus reus

2. The case of the "defense" seems to be based primarily on mere assertions that "such conduct is unimaginable." This is a patently false position, of course, because the "prosecution" as already imagined it . Otherwise, the "defense" case has been limited to arguing over the validity of "prosecution" evidence. However, the "defense" has already admitted that FDR had at least SOME advance warning, and cannot deny FDR's conduct. And the "defense" has not offered any "alibi" evidence of its own to show what FDR was REALLY doing with whatever info the "defense" admits he had.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It has NOT been incontrovertably proven yet that FDR chose to "set up" the Pacific fleet, in specific, to be left in the highest state of vulnerability for an impending attack. I am still not yet convinced that FDR was able to conclude for himself, on Dec 6th, that Pearl was the likely target of attack, regardless of earlier 1941 military estimates & studies that FDR might OR might not had been privy to.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No case is ever incontrovertibly proven in a court of law--there is always at least a shadow of a doubt because none of the jurors were there to see the alleged events. OTOH, how many in the Court of Public Opnion really doubt OJ really did commit a double murder?

In this "case," the evidence is still being debated. But eventually all evidence capable of introduction by the members of this forum will be presented. After that, it's up to the "jury" to decide how much weight to give each piece of evidence.

You, I take it, are going to always vote for "acquittal" because you are incapable of being convinced of anything due to your demand for the unattainable--absolute proof. As such, you would have been booted off the jury in voire dire .

------------------

-Bullethead

It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

[jackhammer]

hey bullethead you keep talking about intercepted messages. what are you talking about? NOBODY ever intercepted any messages that pointed to an attack on ph or even hinted at such an attack. 2) the "defense" does not concede any knowledge of an attack on fdr's part or any one else. if fdr "knew" of an attack than so would stark,marshall,and a whole lot of other people(codebreakers,staff officers,etc). all these people would have kept their mouth shut about an impending attack? 3) kimmel and short, throughout 1941 were kept constantly informed of all latest developments,either by the war dept or the navy dept. as i said in a previous post kimmel and short both received a message on nov 27 informing them that war with japan was imminent( the first line read "THIS IS A WAR WARNING") and for them to take all necessary precautions. they also recieved messages in 1941 several times from stark which warned of a possible jap attack on pearl. does this sound like fdr wanted ph to be surprised? kim and short both discounted an attack for various reasons and took little precautions in spite of the warnings. it was they you were caught with their pants down. any talk of a conspiracy of silence has hardly any proof at all and is utter nonsense.

[jackhammer]

hey bullethead keep up the posts i'm having a good time with the back and forth nature of the discussion. you've made some good points-got any others?

[jackhammer]

:cool just trying to see if the smilies work and also work my way to member status!

[jackhammer]

:rolleyes heres some more. how do i know how close i am?

[Jarmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jackhammer:

:rolleyes heres some more. how do i know how close i am?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just click the little icon above your post, the one with a question mark in it.

I'm replying just to get this thread upwards again