Hey Jeff Duquette!

[Jeff Duquette]

The caption reads: "The day after the battle found Oberleutnant Wahl, commander of the 6.Kompanie/Panzer-Regiment 8, on the rear deck of his Pz.Kpfw.III.Ausf.H drafting a message. The Scherenfernrohr 14Z (scissors perisopes) mounted in the cupola were not standard issue but with their 10x magnification would have been a tremendous help in estimating range and observing fire."

You reckon these things were employed exclusively by command panzers or artillery FO's working with Panzer Truppen?

Regarding the 1950'ish Bundeswehr inventory...to bad. I thought it may have been interesting had old WWII Whermacht Panzer Crews been relagated to Shermans in the post-war German Army.

[RMC]

Hmm, I would think that the SF14Z were used by anybody who could get their hands on them. Artillery guys had big binos that were better than the standard issue ones and commanders grabbed them whenever they could. It was probably not something your average tank crew would be able to get but platoon leader and company commander tracks might have been able to get them. I don't think they were ever issue. I'd bet some of the StuG guys that transferred to tanks would have taken their SF14Z with them because they had liked using it and then other guys are impressed and trade some schnapps to an FO guy.......

It might be interesting to get info on the total production run of these things.

[Jeff Duquette]

bump

[Jeff Duquette]

I recall reading somewheres that German assault guns were particularly feared by Soviet tankers because of the assault guns uncanny accuracy at medium and long range. Maybe those fellows were cheatin’ by using their onboard scissors scopes to establish range to their targets.

You posted some CAT scores on the previous page...any numbers for battlesight engagments...accuracy...time?

[This message has been edited by Jeff Duquette (edited 01-04-2001).]

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RMC:

I'd bet some of the StuG guys that transferred to tanks would have taken their SF14Z with them because they had liked using it and then other guys are impressed and trade some schnapps to an FO guy.......

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe - I doubt it. My grandfather (check website in my profile) still speaks in reverential tones of his Scherenfernrohr, and in all the pictures where he and his OP crew chill there is lots of Schnaps on the table (Wodka, more like it) and they still held on to it

If you missed it, have a look at one of the latest posts in the 88L56 accuracy thread, I posted a picture taken through the Scherenfernrohr there.

------------------

Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[Jeff Duquette]

For brevity sake I drug this image that Germanboy was kind enough to post on another thread. View through an SF14z, taken by Germanboys Grandfather. I had thought the Sf14z was a coincidence type instrument. The two images halves of the target are brought together by an adjusting knob at the base of the scope. When the image of the target was properly adjusted the range is simply read from the graduated adjustment knob.

Any ideas on graduations?...100meters...50 meters...something else?

Hope you dont mind Germanboy.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Duquette (edited 01-04-2001).]

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Duquette:

Any ideas on graduations?...100meters...50 meters...something else?

Hope you dont mind Germanboy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jeff, no problem thanks for doing that.

I have no clue how these things work. If you look closely at the image, you will see a 20 (left) and a (+20) right, two squares from centre. Whether those are degrees or metres, or whatever I have no clue.

------------------

Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[RMC]

I would think that the grid patterns of 20 would have to be mils. Each block representing 10 mils. I was a little surprised to see in the Tigerfibel that the German use of mils parallels that of the American (1 mil = 1 Strich, 6400 mils to a circle). I guess mils are an international standard. Anyway, since the SF14Z is an artillery spotter scope it stands to reason that they use mils like the US artillery. Actual distance markings are useless since the distance measured by the grid varies with the range to the target.

StuGs may have used these from defilade positions from which they could measure the range and then move to hull down and get a better first round hit probability from having a reasonably accurate range estimation.

The idea that the SF14z was a coincidence range finder seems a little less than certain to me. IIRC the only source I foudn for that was the text comments accompanying the photos I posted from the AFV interiors pages. I think the stadiametric idea is probably the correct one, though I've never used such a rangefinder to be able to really know.

[Jeff Duquette]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I was a little surprised to see in the Tigerfibel that the German use of mils parallels that of the American (1 mil = 1 Strich, 6400 mils to a circle). I guess mils are an international standard.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most\all NATO armies seem to use the 6400 mil system for 360 degrees. In addition, I have a copy of the US ARMY's FM17-12 for WWII which indicates the ARMY was using a 6400 mil system back in the 40's as well. Interesting side note is that there has been almost no change in fire commands for tank gunnery between then and now. I suppose this shouldn't be to amazing, if it works why fix it. It was still kind of interesting to me.

It is my understanding that the Soviet Army used\uses a 6000mil system for 360 degrees. In addition some of the Fininish Posters here that have served in Finllands Army indicated it also uses a 6000 mil system. Perhaps some influence from using Soviet Block equipment. I reckon many Arabic armies use 6000 mil system as well.

I also think your right with respect to the stadia line\mil relationship for estimating range via the SF14Z. I thought I had read somewhere that SF14Z was a coincidence type range finder, but after seeing Germanboy's Photo I have to wonder.

Another side note. I found some 1947 British Army testing of the Tiger II. It has a section on loader times broken down by ready rack. Two racks in the Tiger II's turret bulge, rear side of turret. The near side ready rack (right side of turret) actually required more time on average to load than the far side ready rack (left side of turret)

The average loading times per round (in seconds) are as follows:

RACK…………GUN…………...MAX..……………MAX.

……………………LEVEL………….ELEV…………..DEPTH.

A…………………9.6s…………….8.2s…………..10.1s

B…………………8.0s…………….8.0s………………9.3s

Ready rack A and B are both located in the turret bulge. Rack A is on the Loaders side of the turret (right side of the turret). Interesting that the near side ready racks required more time than far side. Perhaps the British Army Loader guinea pigs were all right handed . Seems like the loader would be getting under the TC's feet if they were crossing over to the left side of the turret to load from rack B.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Duquette (edited 01-04-2001).]

[Jeff Duquette]

Another TC with illegal SF14Z range finder. MkIVe

[Jeff Duquette]

MkV on a gunnery range employing the TSR1 spotting periscope. Thats the long skinnie pole thingie coming up out of the cupola.

[RMC]

JD,

Way to keep on plugging. Keep it up and we can fundamentally alter CM's treatment of German gunnery and spotting. Then we can work on nightfighting equipment, the ballistic properties of zimmerit, the superiority of the German blackout drive, the higher octane of German fuel, the ride quality of torsion bar suspension with overlapped roadwheels.........

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RMC:

JD,

Can't find any evidence of Shermans ever in the Bundeswehr inventory. The list of vehicles in the Panzermuseum in the Bundeswehr exhibit does not include them. If they had used them, there are enough specimens floating around for them to have easily gotten one for display.

The M41 was used in Panzergrenadier Battalions and some Panzerjaegerunits. The M47 was the first tank used by the Panzer battalions and most of the Panzerjaeger outfits. They were swapped out for the M48 in 1958. In the 80's they still had upgraded M48's in the territorial units. They developed the Kanonenjagdpanzer in the the 60's and the Leo 1. It'd be interesting to see the layout of the Kanonenjagdpanzer to see how it compares to the StuG and Jagdpanther arrangements. The M41 went out of service with the Germans in 69. According to the Panzermuseum the Danes apprarently stil have them and are upgrading them, but I can find no mention of them on the Danish Army pages.

[This message has been edited by RMC (edited 12-28-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The danes use the M41 today according to my 99 copy of Janes NATO Forces, all upgraded, reengined, and with a new "T-72" killer high velocity APDSFS round. something like 60 tanks are in use in the Jutland Division along side Leopard 1s and Centurions. The Danes love the M41 but the book says, "the M41 has been due for retirement for a number of years and may already be in storage."

[Jeff Duquette]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>RMC:

Keep it up and we can fundamentally alter CM's treatment of German gunnery and spotting. Then we can work on nightfighting equipment, the ballistic properties of zimmerit, the superiority of the German blackout drive, the higher octane of German fuel, the ride quality of torsion bar suspension with overlapped roadwheels<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You Know that that’s right! Hey this is for posterior...I mean posterity. Actually I think ZIMMERIT is what Australians call vegemite, and what we Americans call Maze.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Slap Said:

The Danes love the M41 but the book says, "the M41 has been due for retirement for a number of years and may already be in storage."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Once again the M41 rears its head. This is the Walker Bulldog yes?

[RMC]

Yes, the M41 is the famous Walker Bulldog, hero of many a B war movie.

You know, I think the Zimmerit issue can really turn out to be a game winner. 10mm of Zimmerit can drastically change the outcome of a projectile impact. Come to think of it, it was the first use of composite armor which has been shown to offer increased protection over plain Rolled Homogenous Armor. At the very least CM should factor in the heat dissipation and resistance to chemical energy penetrators provided by generous coatings of Zimmerit.

[Jeff Duquette]

A couple more Tiger I's using the SF14Z...hmmmmm.

[Jeff Duquette]

Not only an SF14Z sporting Tiger...but an example of Tiger I's using sandbags\sandbag for additional frontal armor boost

[Jeff Duquette]

common guys...this is good ****. I been workin hard to find this stuff

[RMC]

Nice shots, JD.

That "sandbag" looks like the driver's laundry bag. The TC is using the SF14Z to spot the quartermaster bath and laundry truck.

I wonder though if CM would be able to factor in a couple of layers of clothing as added protection. Say, 1mm of armor for every set of crusty drawers.......

Live fire test have shown, though that zimmerit was still the composite armor additive of choice. Crusty drawers, even one with big skid marks can't compete.

[Jeff Duquette]

I am assuming you have read official German doctrine on zimmerit. It could in fact double as a laundry detergent. It’s in the ”Zimmerit Fibel”. I just recently obtained a translated version of the ”Zimmerit Fibel”. Excellent reading. Lots of pictures of partially clothed frau’s washing their crusty drawers in zimmerit.

[RMC]

can't say that I've read the doctrine but I do know that zimmerit has become an important additive to the laundry detergent industry. Those very same antimagnetic properties that were never tested in battle because no other nation felt compelled to send men out to attack tanks in hand to hand combat with magnetic hollowcharges turned out to be ideal in combating static cling. Later using an Arby's Roast Beef slicing machine, Zimmerit could be cut into thin enough slices to make fabric softener sheets for the dryer.

Here's a picutre of a Stug IV. Commonly thought to have concrete added for additional protection in front of the driver's area, that reinforcement is in fact Zimmerit.

[This message has been edited by RMC (edited 01-15-2001).]

[Jeff Duquette]

for real?

[RMC]

Yes, way!

[Jeff Duquette]

No-way Dude….wouldn't that lump block the gunners sight? Now if the Germans were using supplemental Zimmerit blocks to increase armor thickness then maybe there must be something to the whole sandbags, logs, track blocks, laundry bags providing additional protection.

Surely this is definitive evidence! Another crusade.

[RMC]

Ah, JD, *sigh*

Obviously, in your untold hours of searching and searching for worthy quests and crusades you overlooked the inherent StuG advantage of having a raised gunner sight that would allow very large quantities of Zimmerit to be used without obstructing the gunner's view. You can just barely see the sight in front of the commander's cupola. The SflZ1 (SelbstfahrlafetteZielfernrohr1) swiveled through a curved arc with the gun. Close up of the sight mounted:

This system was adopted after problems with the early StuGs that had the sight looking forward through an apeture in the armor:

I've never read anything that indicated that this arrangement, which continued on the Jagdpanther and Jagdpanzer IV was more vulnerable to loss from small arms fire or shrapnel.

Here's a shot from above that shows the sight protruding above the hull roof. Note the track links spaced around the commander's cupola. Hadn't seen that before. He would have been safer with large Zimmerit wedges.

[This message has been edited by RMC (edited 01-16-2001).]