cyrano01 Posted October 6, 2000 Share Posted October 6, 2000 I am playing around with setting up a scenario using a British recce unit and during testing I found that my wheeled vehicles were unable to cross hedges (not Bocage hedgerows but ordinary hedges). Page 47 of the manual suggestes that hedges are passable to all vehicles and I can't find a reference to this in the patch readme files. I have searched past threads and although there is a one that suggests wheeled vehicles cannot cross a hedge it is not definite one way or the other. To check this out I set up a test with a range of British vehicles. The tracked and half tracked ones all forged their way through the hedge. All of the wheeled ones failed with one odd exception The Daimler armoured car got through fine. I can't quite work this out although I suppose the Daimler is quite heavy for a wheeled vehicle Have I missed something somewhere or does anyone have any thoughts on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lord General MB Posted October 6, 2000 Share Posted October 6, 2000 Soldier, cyrano01 Has brought up a good point! I dpn't know the answer but some one should give 'em some help! Sounds like: BUG ------------------ Cheers, Lord General Mr. Bill, 1st Army Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyrano01 Posted October 7, 2000 Author Share Posted October 7, 2000 Anyone have anything to add on this one because I am flummoxed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Posted October 8, 2000 Share Posted October 8, 2000 I believe the manual on page 47 is in error. Look on the bottom of page 34 and the top of 35 and it says something much different. ------------------ So maybe you should listen to this Vanir guy instead of ignoring him -- he has the best take on the whole thing. - Combatboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted October 8, 2000 Share Posted October 8, 2000 Nope. Sorry, Vanir, but my copy (is yours different?) only says: (on the bottom of p. 34) that German vehicles cannot pass bocage; and (at the top of p. 35) that wheeled vehicles cannot pass stone walls or bocage. Nothing about hedges. Is cyrano01 *certain* that it is a hedge and not a bocage? Their appearance is similar. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyrano01 Posted October 8, 2000 Author Share Posted October 8, 2000 Thanks for the replies chaps. Michael, I can confirm that my manual says the same as yours. I can also confirm that it is a hedge rather than Bocage. The test map is a simply a hadge right across the map with clear terrain on either side. Ground dry, by the way. I have extended the range of units in the test. These now include (all British) Sherman IIA, Ram Kangeroo, Universal Carrier, Daimler AC, M5A1 Halftrack, Jeep, Truck, Humber Scout Car, White Scout Car and Infantry Squad. Of these all get through the hedge bar three. The White and Humber Scout Cars and the Truck simply refuse to respond to a plotted Move order through the hedge. As Alice said,'Curiouser and curiouser.' I may be doing something wrong or stupid here so if anyone can throw any light on this or reproduce the results (the test only takes 5 minutes to set up) it would be helpful. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyrano01 Posted October 8, 2000 Author Share Posted October 8, 2000 OK, at the risk of appearing to be obsessive..... I have carried out a similar test for a range of US and German vehicles. For the US the M4, M18, Jeep, M20 and M3A1 half track passed through the hedge. The M3A1 Scout Car and Truck failed. For the Germans the MKIV G, PSW234/1, Puma, SdKfz 7 and SdKfz 251/1 passed through the hedge. The Kubelwagen and Truck failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted October 8, 2000 Share Posted October 8, 2000 Hmmm. Yep, this is weird alright. Your test shows that some wheeled vehicles make it through, so I was about to suggest that the dividing line might be the weight of the vehicle, but then you threw in the jeep. Damn! Okay. I give up trying to find a rational answer. It's a bug. Quick, Henry, the Flit! Michael [This message has been edited by Michael emrys (edited 10-08-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Posted October 9, 2000 Share Posted October 9, 2000 Your right, Michael. I was confusing bocage and hedges. ------------------ Most people assume that the M in US vehicle designations means "Model". Thus, the Medium Tank M4 Sherman would be the "Model #4" Medium tank. This is incorrect. The M actually stands for "Mortality" and the number represents the life expectancy of the vehicle in minutes. - Bullethead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyrano01 Posted October 10, 2000 Author Share Posted October 10, 2000 Michael I too had thought weight might have something to do with it so like you I was puzzled by the Jeep getting through OK. I can't figure it out. Maybe this is one for BTS, perhaps someone from there might like to comment if they have a spare moment or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted October 10, 2000 Share Posted October 10, 2000 I for one can personally attest that Jeeps do go through Hedges (at least CJ-7s do at 35mph ). WWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.Tankersley Posted October 10, 2000 Share Posted October 10, 2000 Speaking of the CM manual ... wasn't BTS talking about printing a revised manual to fix some typos, address changes in the patches since initial release, and maybe cover a few areas that weren't dealt with in the initial version? Did this ever happen, and if so does anyone have the new manual? I would love to see some information on "Transport Class" and limbering/unlimbering guns, among other things. ------------------ Leland J. Tankersley [This message has been edited by L.Tankersley (edited 10-10-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Duquette Posted October 10, 2000 Share Posted October 10, 2000 Couple reasons why wheeled vehicles can't cross hedges (in my opinion). First there was a distinct difference between what we commonly think of as a hedge, and what is implied by Normandy Boccage. The following is a cross section of a typical Normandy Hedgerow or Norman Boccage. Picture and text are from a US ARMY pamphlet released during the war. Another photo showing a typical Normandy sunken road, bordered by hedgerows\Boccage. As you can see boccage was a fairly significant terrain feature. The reason behind only Allied tanks having hedgerow-crossing ability is strong founded in history of the Normandy Campaign. Allied tanks were fitted with impromptu hedge cutters prior to the commencement of Operation Cobra. These hedge cutters (resulting in tanks being nicknamed "Rhino" tanks) consisted of scrap steel welded to the front of allied tanks. A lot of the scrap steel was taken from German beach obstacles along Omaha and Utah beaches. These Rhino tanks had the ability to cut through the dense foliage at the top of Boccage. Omar Bradley, after seeing a demonstration of "Rhino" tanks was so impressed with their Boccage crossing abilities that he ordered all American Tanks and Tank Destroyers be rapidly outfitted with the Rhino cutters right before Operation Cobra. In order to ensure surprise, he also order the employment "Rhino" tanks be restricted until the start of Cobra. American ordnance crews succeeded by Herculean efforts to outfit about 2/3 of all American tanks and tank destroyers in Normandy by the commencement of Operation Cobra. Wheeled vehicles couldn't realistically cross boccage for two reasons <LI>Inability of wheeled vehicles to bust through the dense foliage mantling the top of Boccage embankments. <LI>tendency of such vehicles becoming high centered on the steep earthen embankments at the base of boccage while trying to cross such an obstacle. So in my humble opinion this inability of wheeled (and half-tracked vehicles) to cross Boccage is not a game glitch or game bug in CM. What it represents is a very realistic attempt on the part of BTS designers to model the historical difficulties associated with the Normandy Hedgerow Country. [This message has been edited by Jeff Duquette (edited 10-10-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyrano01 Posted October 11, 2000 Author Share Posted October 11, 2000 Thanks for the replies all. Jeff your material was most interesting. We do seem to be slightly at cross-purposes. The problems I have been having relate to hedges rather than Bocage hedgerows (the two are different terrain types, see pp 46-47 of the manual). I quite agree with you about wheeled vehicles not being able to penetrate Bocagefor all the reasons you cite. I too have some Bocage pictures in a book covering the British sector and the banks are a formidable obstacle. As I mentioned in my earlier post what puzzles me is that, although the manual suggests all vehicles can penetrate hedges (of the ordinary, non-Bocage variety, p47) I am finding that some can and some can't. My tests are outlined in my earlier post but included in those that can are jeeps and included in those that can't Humber and M3A1 Scout Cars. It may be that I am doing something wrong but I can't for the life of me work out what. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Duquette Posted October 11, 2000 Share Posted October 11, 2000 Hay cyrano01: Guess I misinterpreted your post. And here I was lining up some good Rhino Tank photos to add to this thread I haven't noticed problems with wheeled vehicles crossing baby hedges…but than I guess I haven't been watching close enough. I'll give it a spin tonight and see what's what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyrano01 Posted October 11, 2000 Author Share Posted October 11, 2000 Jeff No worries. I'd appreciate it if you would give it a try, so I know whether it is just me or not! It is the some can, some can't nature of the thing that is puzzling. I only noticed it first when I tried using a Humber Scout Car. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyrano01 Posted October 14, 2000 Author Share Posted October 14, 2000 If anyone from BTS sees this thread do you have any thoughtds on the matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lord General MB Posted October 14, 2000 Share Posted October 14, 2000 Sirs, BTS, Cyrano01 has found us another bug... Mabye some explanation? (Now ofr my personal vendetta: Why don't tank MGs jam?).... ------------------ Cheers, Lord General Mr. Bill, 1st Army Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lord General MB Posted October 15, 2000 Share Posted October 15, 2000 Bumpity, Bumpity, Bumpity, BUMP! (Sorry...) ------------------ Cheers, Lord General Mr. Bill, 1st Army Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyrano01 Posted October 26, 2000 Author Share Posted October 26, 2000 Bumo ------------------ The British Army always fights its battles uphill, in the pouring rain, at the junction of two map-sheets. (Field Marshal W. Slim) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Bergman Posted October 26, 2000 Share Posted October 26, 2000 Jeff Could you please post those Rhino pictures you were mentioning? I don't have many pictures of US ones, only British, and would be interested to see them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elementalwarre Posted October 26, 2000 Share Posted October 26, 2000 cyrano01, just checking - did you try several times with the units that refused to cross the hedge? perhaps it's a probability not a boolean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyrano01 Posted October 27, 2000 Author Share Posted October 27, 2000 I think I tried a couple of times but it's a good thought. I'll give it another whirl tonight. ------------------ The British Army always fights its battles uphill, in the pouring rain, at the junction of two map-sheets. (Field Marshal W. Slim) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted October 27, 2000 Share Posted October 27, 2000 We are looking into it. If it's a bug we will fix it. Madmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyrano01 Posted October 28, 2000 Author Share Posted October 28, 2000 Matt Cheers, good to know you have it covered. ------------------ The British Army always fights its battles uphill, in the pouring rain, at the junction of two map-sheets. (Field Marshal W. Slim) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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