Guest John Pender Posted July 17, 1999 Share Posted July 17, 1999 When will the game be released? Be honest we can take it 1,2,3 months? I upgraded my computer, bought more reference books now I sit and wait. Last posted 5 months ago and said then and still stands now take your time get it right. Please let us know how much longer we should be prepared to wait. The game has come a long way keep up the great work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRourke Posted July 17, 1999 Share Posted July 17, 1999 I'll see if I can save Steve some typing and field this one.. The word has been that it'll be done when its done, and not a moment sooner. Right now this is shaping up to be the end of the summer, which I take to mean "somewhere in september". Obviiously alot depends on how the beta test goes, which I understand should be starting fairly soon. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Davie Posted July 17, 1999 Share Posted July 17, 1999 CRourke; this is basically what I believe to be the case as well. I've got a slight difference in that I believe that finishing certain portions of the AI and various modellings will push it past a summer release, but this is of no concern to me. I'd rather them take as much time as possible and have them get it right then to release it early and in a deficient state. But heck, I'll gladly be proved wrong and certainly won't quibble about a year or two Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted July 17, 1999 Share Posted July 17, 1999 I'm with you Thomas. I don't care how long it takes as long as they get it right. I have a lot of games that are four, five, or six years old that still occupy my hard drive and get a lot of playing time because they were well designed and are still fun despite their limitations with respect to such things as graphics. I also have my share of games that I have bought because of the hype and anticipation that it aroused in me, played a few times and then let collect dust because it didn't meet my expectations and desires. As a result of the latter, I have become much more cynical about games that I read about and I've adopted two main strategies before I buy. 1- I never buy games at Christmas time. 2- I always wait at least three months after a game has been published before buying it - if the reviews are good - this usually allows time for the first patch to come out Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marko Posted July 17, 1999 Share Posted July 17, 1999 If there's one thing a programmer can't do, it's learn how to avoid making optimistic predictions about release dates. I know because I'm a programmer (although a lame one compared to Charles) and I've made many bold predictions about release dates all of which I have missed. You think, "Yeah, I only have to add this functionality, optimise this part of the code, and eliminate a few bugs. Two weeks max!" But often things are so interlocked in your program that fixing a bug here will introduce a new bug there. Then, of course, there's the old feature creep. You'll put your program through its paces and by the end there'll be about a dozen entries in your "neat-features-I-must-add" list. All this is why I'm so patient about Combat Mission's release. Marko Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Pender Posted July 17, 1999 Share Posted July 17, 1999 Sounds like it's going to be an early Christmas gift. BTS is November about right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRourke Posted July 17, 1999 Share Posted July 17, 1999 I too, am absolutely in favor of BTS waiting until CM is totally finished before release. My impression is that they're going to that anyway, even if we all were yelling "Screw the bugs, I want it NOW!". But, just to play devil's advocate here for a moment, the decision to "release now or develop more" isn't as black and white as alot of people think. First, every month that goes by, the game and graphics engine gets more dated. Now, I know that many wargamer's say graphics mean nothing to them, but then again, I hear alot of people asking for blowing translucent smoke from wrecks too. And better graphics, by the standards of the release day, mean more sales to the non-wargamers. This means more chance of CM follow ups, and more new wargamers brought into the fold. The greatest wargame in the world wouldn't stand a chance, even with grognards, if it was in 4 color CGA. Also, since no one at BTS is on a salary, I assume, the money they make from CM is going to have to spread out over the time they spent working on the game. So if they spend 20 percent longer on the game, that means a corresponding 20 percent cut in "wages". Anyway, like I said, I'm glad BTS is waiting til its all done before release. I'm glad BTS doesn't follow the industry's lead of allowing customers to pay $50 for the priviledge of becoming a beta tester. But whenever I hear everyone saying "take your time", I like to interject that there is another side to the issue. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted July 18, 1999 Share Posted July 18, 1999 When? How about now, now, NOW! RELEASE IT NOW RELEASE IT NOW RELEASE IT NOW NUFF SAID. Well someone had to take the opposite position here didn't they? Actually, I would agree w/ most of what has been said above as well. However, at some point there is a fine line between "perfection" (which will never be achieved in the AI, or any other facet of the game) and common sense. Where common sense is, "hey, we've done the best job that we can, the game is 90-95% of what we wanted it to be and isn't full of bugs, etc.", along w/ "we are starting to starve and they are going to forclose on my house so I'd better release this thing and make some $$$ already". What I'm getting at here is that I'm not one to wait for an "arbitrary" amount of time for this thing to come out. Which is what it sounds like alot of others are here willing to do. When you do this sort of thing it just opens the proverbial pandora's box. Well, we can add just one more feature to the game. It won't take that long right? Or, I really would like to spend another 2 weeks improving the TAC AI (which in relative terms is already 90+% as good is it is going to get). Pretty soon there is one change, and then another, and another, and another. Before you know it the game has turned into a fall release, then a Christmas release, and then God forbid a year 2000 release! I know I harped on this some time ago, but at some point the game configuration (what's in and what's out and to what degree are we gong to do what) have to be locked down and you have to get on w/ programming the thing and getting it out the door. I know programming is a little more flexible than the more rigid mech. engineering projects that I'm involved with, but you can't go on forever making the thing "better". You can't spend forever improving the ballistics modeling, AI, or whatever else everyone seems to think is so God awful important. At some point you have to put a wrapper on the thing and get it out the door. BTS, please take the time to do it "right" (whatever this means to you and in keeping w/ some common sense), but don't delay this thing forever trying to perfect it like I believe some (not necessarily even those of you who have responded above) would probably like you to do. But I digress. In the final analysis I guess it doesn't really matter what any of us think because it's BTS's show and they will decide when they are ready to release it and not us. And I trust that they will make good descisions in terms of having the game ready while getting it out in a timely fashion. Mike D aka Mikester [This message has been edited by Mike D (edited 07-17-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Maragoudakis Posted July 18, 1999 Share Posted July 18, 1999 I'll tell you what will happen. The game will be released on time. It's not complicated at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marko Posted July 18, 1999 Share Posted July 18, 1999 No, John, the game has already not been released on time - a couple of times. Unless, of course, "on time" means "when it's done". Marko Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Davie Posted July 18, 1999 Share Posted July 18, 1999 Interesting thoughts Chris. I certainly agree with the points you've made. Obviously I would prefer that the designers of this game get paid, and I can accept that as a motivating factor, if not the sole reason for releasing this game. I as a consumer have a vastly different agenda; I want the game, and I'm not relying on it to generate income. My overly long list of criteria for 'a' game is; 1) Quality of AI opponent. Doesn't matter how realistic the game system is in terms of generating results, if the artificial intelligence is sub par, I'll usually pass on a game pretty quickly. 2) Realistic results, or efficacy in simulating military history. It's a measure of how efficient the system is in 'approaching' reality. 3) Quality of interface. I want to be able to use the tactics and strategies that *I* want to use without having to dig through multiple menus. I want to have the ability to micromanage without being FORCED to. 4) Should be in a turn based environment, whether it's igo-ugo or weplot-wego.I've only got one rts game on my shelf and it's for a reason; I'm not after a game that will test my reflexes. 5) Documentation. This might be as simple as a complete description of the game interface, the game rules and hot keys 6) Data. I want ranges, weapon penetration, correct ammo loadouts, and as far as is possible morale ratings, sighting ranges and morale charts 7) Multiplayer via hotseat, lan, modem, tcp/ip and other means. 8) random scenario generator; now an absolute necessity for myself. I'm starting to pass over games that don't have them. 9) Mappable keyboard 10) Graphics&sound; if I can distinguish militarily distinct symbols I'm happy; basic audio cues are ok. Some of my 'demands' won't be met by Combat Mission and this is ok (I ain't gonna stop demanding what I think is reasonable ), but I honestly believe I'm gonna get points 1 and 2. These are make or break for me. I can take or leave points 3 to 10, but the more I have to leave behind in a game, the less happy I'll be with it. Here's a question for you; 'If the game system by itself is capabale of generating statistically valid results by simply resolving low level combat, should an AI be able to approach 'historically' valid results? Sorry for the rambling, but I got into an argument about this tonight at a party. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted July 18, 1999 Share Posted July 18, 1999 I definitely feel that BTS should be patient and try to get this more right than the average game. However, perfection is impossible, BTS needs to make their money, and we want to play a great game. Therefore, BTS needs to say at sometime that enough is enough, finish what they already started (referring to finishing programming the features they've started but not adding any more), and sell the thing. Personally, I see this issue as the one danger of this forum. I have had a great time reading and writing here in this forum. Furthermore, it's informative and will I feel improve the game. However, BTS could try to implement too many of the suggestions put forth here thus delaying the game to ridiculously (Sp?) late release dates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Davie Posted July 18, 1999 Share Posted July 18, 1999 Quick question for Rick; what is a ridiculously late release date? I'll wait as long as I have to in order to get the game that I want. This will sound quite mercenary on my part; but there's always another game out there that I can play to tide me over until CM comes out. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted July 18, 1999 Share Posted July 18, 1999 I think that BTS has already reached the point where they have decided what to keep and what to reject and now it is a matter of writing the code and then testing. While I agree that perfection is impossible, it is also impossible to satisfy all the things that I would like to see in a game unless I do all the programming myself. Since I am too lazy to get back into programming (I gave it up nearly ten years ago), I'll have to be satisfied with what I can get from people who are willing to supply my habit. With that said I must say that I'm happy with the way that BTS is handling things right now - they are a hell of a lot more responsive to their customers (or potential customers) than most of the game companies out there. I get the feeling from reading this forum and seeing their responses that this game will go a lot further to satisfying my desires for a good game of its type than any other product out there. By the way, I've been waiting almost twenty years for a computer game that will satisfy my need to simulate tactical combat without actually having to fight so if BTS can come closer than any other company with this game then I don't mind waiting - so long as they don't drop the ball and let some other company upstage their effort. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted July 18, 1999 Share Posted July 18, 1999 I guess one answer to what is a ridiculously late release date, would be like late next summer. I'm not trying to hurry them, I definitely feel they should make this game right. However, my point is that an excellent game in our hands is more fun than a perfect game that is never released. I would agree that a crappy game is much worse than the excellent game that is never released. Although, I think they could release it now and it would be pretty good even with the unfinshed stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted July 19, 1999 Share Posted July 19, 1999 Wow, go away from the boards for a couple of days and you miss a whole bunch The official word is that we will make some sort of best guess for the ship date when we hit Beta. We are pretty darned close to that now. Hopefully a couple of weeks (that means 2-4!). After a couple of weeks of testing we will know roughly how much more work there is to be done. It isn't *just* about programming, but also finishing the models, final art, voices, TO&E, scenarios, the manual etc. Lots of stuff to do! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Talley Posted July 19, 1999 Share Posted July 19, 1999 I am in Mike and John's camp. I am ready to play the game now. One area that possibly could slow down the release is availability of all the various types of vehicles. If having vehicles that are not necessary for included scenarios involves significant manpower which slows the release of the game, I would suggest that one, two, or whatever is appropriate, vehicles be released on a monthly basis from this site after the initial release of the game. I could see two advantages off the top of my head. One, the game is released earlier. Two, we as players are able to look forward to new vehicles each month for our new scenarios. Possibly a win/win scenario. Although I suspect the vehicle production is time scheduled and man houred to match completion of all other aspects of the game. However if the man hours of say 20 vehicles were devoted to completion of other aspects and resulted in a game release say one month earlier, it might be worth thinking about. I don't know what everyone else feels but I certainly wouldn't mind downloading two or three new vehicles each month to supplement my initial purchase. If it resulted in receiving CM 2-4 weeks earlier and still eventually receiving all necessary vehicles over say a six to twelve month period, I could at least start playing the game earlier. Getting eager to play the game, Ken [This message has been edited by Ken Talley (edited 07-19-99).] [This message has been edited by Ken Talley (edited 07-19-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted July 19, 1999 Share Posted July 19, 1999 No one thing will determin the release date. There are many variables, so cutting out some vehicles isn't going to get the game done any sooner. If we do happen to find that one thing is holding up the release, and that one thing is non-escential vehicles, then of course we will most likely release and put out the "extras" ASAP for free. But I don't think this will happen. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Stone Posted July 19, 1999 Share Posted July 19, 1999 Eeeeeeeeek !!! Please DO NOT cut corners by "passing" on some vehicles etc.... I've watched this game for almost two years; I CAN wait an extra two months !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted July 19, 1999 Share Posted July 19, 1999 Steve. I refer to all the stuff you mentioned above as "programming". Sure it's not writing nasty code, but it is time spent in front of a computer screen to get the game done. Next, I would have to say that I agree w/ Ken T's thoughts on this matter. If anything, like some of the vehicles, or other things that can easily be implemented in a patch 4-8 weeks later, is "holding up" the release of the game, then I am also for going ahead and releasing it and getting it into my sweaty little paws that much sooner. Of course things like the main game engine, AI, etc. will pretty much have to be put into the game up front, otherwise you don't have a game I would also like to re-echo what someone else said above that if doing things like making pretty screen shots and movies that everyone keeps asking for is time consuming and detracting from getting this game done, then by all means stop doing them and concentrate on the game itself. In fact, I would go so far as to say that if this discussion group is taking away valuable time from the games final development that you also may want to seriously consider spending less time here as well. It wouldn't bother me one bit if you did just that. Finally, out of curiousity about how many people will be in the initial beta test phase? Are you still planning to have a later test phase closer to the release of the game where more people will be able to get involved as well? Regards, Mike D aka Mikester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRourke Posted July 19, 1999 Share Posted July 19, 1999 My understanding is the AI and iron out the bugs beta phase is the biggest thing that needs to be finished before release. Certainly not something that should be skipped for a later patch. While I'm in favor of seeing the greatest variety of vehicles ship with the product, I think it would be neat to see a weekly or bimonthly release of additional vehicles. Cavedog software did something similiar with an RTS game they released, and I think it added alot of longevity to the game. Now, admittedly, longevity shouldn't be a problem with a wargame like cm, (unlike rts games, where its measured in weeks rather than years), but I think periodically issuing new units would still be darn neat. It would bring gamers back to the battlefront website, which is good business for bf, and helps to build community among the gamers. Plus, its a good way to get some more that the eclectic german vehicle fleet into the game. In the past, developers showed very little inclination to improve their product after release. At best they'd just fix the things that were obviously broke (and re-release it as a gold version). Only a few ) chose to add improvements after release, out of a real desire to make their game better. As 90% of most modern title's sales are probably made in the first month or two after release, there is little monetary incentive. Hopefully with the BF system, developers will see financial rewards for improving their product after release as the life cycle should be alot longer. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted July 19, 1999 Share Posted July 19, 1999 Sounds to me like BTS is taking the right approach to this. Would it be an easy thing to do to have downloadable vehicles? It was an interesting idea, I'm not sure how well I liked it, because I felt the majority of the vehicles types were pretty important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Davie Posted July 20, 1999 Share Posted July 20, 1999 My thoughts on BTS/ Battlefront releasing an incomplete game (not that they will; you'll see me stop drinking beer for all eternity before that happens ); if they did....I just wouldn't buy it. Sure, I want the game yesterday. I mean, who doesn't? But I will *NOT* buy or in any way support a game that is half baked. Do I want to download extra vehicles that are required to complete the 'original' list? No. Would I buy the game if some of them just were not in CM 1.0? Hard to say. Of course, until I get my hands on the game or demo, anything that I think about the game is educated speculation at best. But this having been said, I've been following this for over 2 years; a few more months ain't gonna kill me. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted July 20, 1999 Share Posted July 20, 1999 The only vehicles that we might not ship with are (or at least were) clearly marked as "maybes". Vehicles like the Stugs III & IV, a dozen Sherman types, a couple of armored cars per side, etc. will all be in the initial release. Something like the Sturmtiger, where only 18 were ever made and only 9 ever went into battle so far as we can tell, will probably not make it (although we have a NICE texture for it). Don't worry... there will be LOTS of neat stuff to play with. Everything on the list, including our wish list vehicles? Not going to happen Steve [This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 07-20-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morte Rouge Posted July 20, 1999 Share Posted July 20, 1999 There appear to be two schools of thought here: 1. I want it now regardless. 2. We will sell no wine before its time. One of the constant whines about the PC gaming market these days is that no game is released complete and that purchasers are paying to be beta testers with no guarantee of patching. It seems to me that Battlefront's approach to sales is the perfect antidote and would also give them a host of beta testers who are anxious, passionate and choose to be testers. Since everyone who purchases must do so here, let those of us who have pre-purchased beta test IF WE WANT TO. Those in group 2 above could choose not to participate. The only downside would be added cost to BTS (which I know nothing about) and possibly some bad word of mouth if there were some serious flaws. On the other hand, look at all the willing beta testers you'd have. Go ahead and charge our credit cards when you send the beta (good for cash flow), then we could just download the patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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