Tanks crews

[CoolColJ]

What happend to tanks that have been disabled, but the with the crew still alive? Do they bail out, and continue snopping around?

CCJ

[Guest KwazyDog]

I believe when they get immobilized depending on whats happening around them and their experience, the crew with still hang in there, though will obviously be shaken up.

Another round or two into the tank though, Id imagine theyd bail The interesting thing is that if you finish the battle with the immobolised tank withing friendly lines, it is then possible it will be recovered and repaired for the next battle. Pretty cool huh

Anyways, I believe this is all correct, though could be wrong, hehe.

[Guest Big Time Software]

KwazyDog is correct. One additional thing is that ANY crew (gun, tank, truck, etc.) can be ordered to Bail from their weapon/vehicle once it is immobilized. Crews are valuable and shouldn't be stuck when in a bad spot.

Bailed crews are totally ineffective as infantry too.

Steve

[Rick]

Can a crew, defend itself from capture? I wouldn't think that they would be good infantry, but my possibly be able to defend themselves from someone trying to capture them.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Crews have a limited self-defense capability (pistols, basically). So they can fight a little, but your best bet is to pull them back from the front line once their heavy weapon or vehicle is lost.

Charles

[Rick]

Wow, I was right about something.

[Mike D]

FWIW,

I believe in my recent readings that German Tiger crews were also outfitted with a single sub machine gun (probably an MP40???) along w/ pistol's for use in order to protect itself if it had to bail out.

Regards,

MikeD

aka Mikester

[This message has been edited by Mike D (edited 08-22-99).]

[Guest Big Time Software]

Mike,

Most crews of all nations had a bigger weapon than pistol somewhere in the vehicle. Thing is, when "she's about to blow!" you don't have time to grab all your gear before getting the H*** outta that vehicle.

A couple of SMGs would be quite useful for times when the crew is immobilized outside of combat (bogged in the mud, broken-down transmission, or something) and is forced to dismount but not in a rush. Sometimes a tank commander would individually dismount to do a little local recon and would likely take an SMG along. But this is outside the scope of CM. In CM, bail-outs are the "OH MY GOD GET OUT NOW!!" kind.

Charles

[Note: This message has been edited by Big Time Software]

[tss]

I have a question about tank crews bailing out.

Is it possible that a tank crew panics and bails out from an undamaged tank? While most paniced crews would drive away, there are recorded instances when a crew abandons a tank that is in perfect fighting condition, either because they think that it is damaged or because they are green and forget that being inside a tank is usually a lot safer than being outside one.

I have can remember two examples off my head. At counterattack of Kuuterselkä on Summe '44 at Karelian Isthmus a Finnish Stu-40 assault gun was lost when a 152mm shell landed in front of it and the crew thought they had received a direct hit and bailed out. When it was realised that the Sturm was not damaged it was no longer possible to recover it because of Soviet counter-counterattack.

As another ecample I remember reading about a study that was conducted by Western Allies where they examined destroyed German tanks. If I remember correctly, they found that about 60% of German tank losses were tanks that were abandoned by their crews. Most of those tanks had run out of gas, but surprisingly high percentage had full fuel tanks. In most of those cases they found traces of aerial attacks (rocket craters and like) at the same region. Their hypothesis was that the tank units had come under aerial attack and the crews had panicked and abandoned their vehicles.

The same study also found that only about 1% of the tank losses could be directly attributed to fighter-bombers (rocket and bomb hits), so in effect the crews would probably have been much safer in their vehicles than outside them. Of course, many of the abandoned tanks were left behind because figher-bombers had destroyed the fuel trucks.

- Tommi

[Guest Big Time Software]

Tommi - we're not simulating crews bailing out of perfectly functional tanks for the main reason that such bail-outs would occur for reasons generally beyond the scope of CM. You mentioned (German) tanks running out of gas, and coming under air attack. While it's possible that a tank could run out of gas in the middle of a battle, it's much more likely that such a thing would occur in maneuvers off the battlefield, or at least off the small-scale battlefield presented in CM. And while CM has air attacks, the kind you're describing are more the behind-the-front-lines sort of air attack where it's conceivable that the crew of a tank, caught out in the open on a road by an air strike, might decide that their only way to "hide" is to bail out and run for cover on foot. But it's unlikely that even a green crew would make this decision if there was also a group of Allied infantry or machine guns right nearby, shooting at them, as is usually the case in Combat Mission.

So bail-outs of functional tanks are certainly not impossible at CM's scale, but we considered them infrequent enough that they're not worth simulating.

Charles

[Patrick]

I remember reading a description of the battle at Villers Bocage about Wittman and his men bailing out of their Tiger. He ordered his men to take the MG34's with them to defend themselves ...

[Fionn]

Yep but the only reason they had the time for this was since no dismounted British infantry were nearby. If there had been you can be sure Wittmann would have ordered his crew to just get the hell out of dodge.

------------------

_________________________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Guest Big Time Software]

I also read a story where a tank commander, armed with nothing more than a P38 pistol took out a Canadian squad. Freak things like this happen in war, but we can't go around simulating them all Tank crews, for the most part, were concerned with getting OUT of the combat zone. That is what CM's crews do.

Steve

[tss]

Thank's for the answer to my question.

I agree that when a tank crew wants to get out of danger the most common reaction is to drive away, but bailing out seems to have been relatively common reaction when a tank was hit but the shot failed to penetrate armo r. Of course, this depended on a situation. No Tiger crew would abandon their tank when hit by a T-34/76 that was 500m off. Also, there were occasions when crews continued fighting in burning and immobilized tanks.

In my earlier message I gave the example of a StuG crew who bailed when they thought they were hit. Another case happened a couple of days later when a T-34/85 fired at point-blank range at Finnish KV-IE that was advancing as the point tank of Finnish Heavy Tank Company along a narrow forest road. The shot hit the hull of the Klim, but failed to penetrate (the tank in question is now in Finnish Armor Museum and I've seen the dent with my own eyes). The stunned crew bailed out and run to the cower of forest.

Yet another example from the same battle happened when a single Soviet T-34 was ambushed by a battery of German StuGs (The tank had passed Finnish AT-guns because the gunners mistook it for Finnish T-34, the rest tanks of the unit were not as lucky). The first shot hit but apparently failed to cause any significant damage. At that point the commander of the T-34 noticed that they were in deep trouble and bailed out. About ten seconds later two Stugs simultaneously hit the turret ring and hit the ammunition, disitegrating the tank. The tank commander was later shot when he tried to escape

capture. If you have seen a picture where two Finnish Panzerfaustmen walk by a destroyed tank, you've seen what happened to the T-34 in question (I've seen that picture in three books this far, and in two of them the caption erroneously claims that the tank was destroyed by Panzerfausts).

-Tommi

[Guest Big Time Software]

Tommi,

Thanks for the examples. Charles and I talked about this more last week and it will most likely be a part of crew behavior. If a crew panics we might make them bail out. Well, it is now on The List so we shall see

Steve

[WWIIRulz]

I saw that if u have a damaged tank in your territory at the end of the mission u get the tank back and can repair it, but what if its in enemy territory, can the enemy repair it and use it(you could do that in CC3). Ohh yes, do u model fuel consumption in the game? Or do u make the missions not that long so u wouldn't have to worry about that sort of thing.

[Mike D]

I would think and hope that the liklihood of crews panicking and bailing out of their tanks for little good reason (i.e. tank not actually hit by a penetrating shot or immobilized) would greatly diminish as crew experience level rises. I.e. I can see this happening to green and sometimes regular crews, but not very often to experienced / crack crews.

Mike D

aka Mikester

[Guest KwazyDog]

I agree Mike. I think this action would most likely be taken by inexperienced crews whom had a nearby cover to hide in that their tank could not. Heavy woods or buildings may be this.

I can certainally imagine an inexperienced Sherman crew in the middle of a town, a tiger to their front, no where to run to behind, bailing out and taking of into a nearby building...

[Mike T]

Two accounts I have read about involve British tankers abandoning their tanks. The first was in the Western Desert where, when fired at by German 88's, the tankers abandoned their tanks because they knew they were dead meat if they stayed with their tanks. The second account was in reading about Wittmann's attack on a British tank column where he destroyed the last tank in the column and then the first tank and then proceeded at his leisure to destroy the remaining tanks of the column which had been abandoned by their crews.

I am sure that experience played a role in those abandonments as well ie. the crews were experienced enough to know that their chances of survival were greater outside thier tanks.

[Ken Talley]

I also read an account of Panzer Lehr tankers abandoning their Panthers while under heavy artillery fire at Wolfskirchen in Oct(?)44. Although the crews were very green. They had just completed their initial training at Paderborn and were almost immediately thrown into battle. It must have been awfully bad to abandon a panther for the ditches alongside. Didn't really make sense.