AI Story

[Guest Big Time Software]

Thomas (and others) have asked for a more detailed example of how well the AI plays. All I can say is that the AI gives a REALLY good fight at the moment, and there are still tweaks to be done. It is easily the hardest, non-cheating AI I have ever played (ones that double their units are fight better, cheating AIs, are hard to beat for other reasons!). I have been playing Combat Mission since it was a prototype (2 years or so), I know exactly what the AI has in terms of forces, and I STILL have a hard time beating it. Example from a game done yesterday (details withheld on purpose)...

The AI was playing the US. They got to my defensive positions and just shelled the crap out of my forces and poured fire into them from all sides (which matters in CM!). All the while small groups (I knew only because I "bought" their units and did a quick head count ) worked both of my flanks. On one flank I was ready and held him up OK (still hurt!), but the other I didn't see something at first. What I thought was a direct assault on the edge of my positions (a great move, BTW) turned out to be a flanking force that stumbled onto my MRL. I beat the crap out of it at first, but fire from other positions dealt me back at least what I dished out.

What I didn't notice was a force sneaking around, using woods as cover, to get in behind my positions. I didn't get a hint of these guys until they were already BEHIND my MRL. Problem was I had *no* reserves at this point, and the enemy force was closing in on some stuff that would have been bad if they stumbled upon. There was nothing I could do!

Unfortunately for the AI, this was also the turn that I got reserves. I had intended on rushing them to the front, which had nearly vanished under heavy fire, but instead I had to go after this raiding force of unknown size (I only saw a squad, but who knows!). Worse, I had lost track of it. So my only hope of holding the front had to first go and hunt down these guys. I found 'em, and indeed it was just one squad. Seems the force that hit my MRL was supposed to be with these guys, but the rest got toasted. I took out most and captured the rest. But this cost me about 4 turns at least! But this was better than losing my rear units

Anyhoo, I managed to move my force and come in on the AI's advancing flank (now in control of my MRL) and initially made good progress counter attacking my way to a lone HMG42 and HQ unit holding out against a Sherman and 2 platoons of US infantry. Just as the AI figured out the coast was clear to flank and then assault these guys, from 2 directions (3 if you include the Sherman) I might add, I managed to get my relief force in ahead of them by only 15m or so. A quick firefight decimated the lead US units, and then I managed to cream the rest of at least one platoon (they were already slightly weakened). I then snuck a Panzerschreck team up to take out the Sherman while my infantry covered them. I hit, but it wasn't enough, and the Sherman saw me and wasted my PS team with MG an then HE Then all Hell broke loose! I swear that Sherman was PISSED!

Another US platoon came in to reinforce the remains of the other surviving one, the Sherman took out my HMG, and then crushed a squad, sending the survivors packing to the rear. To .30 cal MMGs were brought up and they, along with the infantry, started wailing on the rest of my force. I withdrew under intense fire with about 70% of my force lost. I did manage to save the HQ unit and one shattered Squad finally came back under my control a few turns latter. But like so many other counter attacks in war, mine started off great but was killed by superior combined arms fire.

I managed to win the scenario, but just barely. In fact, I am no longer sure I won, since we found a bug today that didn't do the math correctly for calculating victory levels! So my guess is that I got a Draw at best.

What about problems with the AI? Sure, I knew that would be your next question One thing the AI doesn't do well is manage its ammo enough. The reason I was able to hold out until the game ended at all (and JUST barely at that!) was because they had used up most of their small arms ammo taking out my MRL. If it had had about 1 platoon with 30% ammo left, I would have been outta there! The AI should have launched its direct assault on my positions a few turns earlier in order to force a decision sooner rather than later. The standard infantry squad only has enough ammo for a disciplined 20 minute firefight (not including moving around time), and this was an INTENSE assault. Effectively each unit therefore only has about a good 10 minutes worth of ammo or less. However, I can tell you that the 2 platoons the AI ran up against first were decimated almost completely. I think I managed to get about 6-8 men out of there, all of which were panicked. So it wasn't like it was wasting ammo for nothing, just overkill.

Anyhoo, that should be easy to tweak.

Hope you enjoyed!!

Steve

[guachi]

Thanks for the report Steve! If we can't play the game yet, at least we can experience it vicariously.

Reading your report made me think of something. I wonder if any of the difficulties beating the AI come from the fact that it is only the computer and not some live breathing computer.

I know when I play games my level of concentration varies depending on who and in what setting I am playing. If I am playing in a tournament I concentrate really hard. The same thing goes for gameday when I play sports or take a test. And when I play against the computer, I tend to get a little lazy. Even if the computer is really good. I mean, it's only the computer. It doesn't care whether it wins or loses.

I'm not saying that you or any of the other testers are doing this. Certainly, considering the many lame AIs out there, getting beat by the AI might be a little embarrassing and you would definitely concentrate a little more next time. But maybe, just a little and without meaning to, you might not be concentrating as much as you might against a human.

I know that I get lazy when I play against the computer. And I am certain that many of us, even with prior warning, will be in for a rude shock playing the computer.

Jason

Still looking forward to the demo. But Toys 'R' Us has a 'buy one get one free' on Parker Brothers and Milton Bradley board games. I picked up a bunch of games I'd been eyeing. Like the 40th anniversary Risk (my first wargame at the age of 4) with 384 metal miniatures.

No matter how cool computer games are they can't match the tactile fun of a good boardgame.

[CoolColJ]

Steve

This sound great - it looks like the AI is quite varied!

I know when I play CC3 - I always want the computer to be better and beat my butt up - but when it does, I get really pissed (and even try to cheat!) - when a human beats me, they get my respect. Its funny about the differing attitudes

CCj

[Guest L Tankersley]

Steve,

have you played much against Charles? My suspicion is that the AI will end up playing a lot like Charles only probably with better (or at least more thorough) analysis skills, not missing possibilities and the like. [Or at least, playing like Charles wants to play.]

Leland J. Tankersley

[Guest Mikeman]

I love it! An AI that one senses as being "pissed off". I can tell already I'm gonna wear out the CD before I beat it. Sounds like I need to study up on some real world tactics for this one. Better yet, and more fun, I'll just learn from the AI. Are you guys looking forward to this one as much as I am? The wait is really getting to me.

Mikeman out.

[Herr Oberst]

Even without assistance from Titan , I'm sure my "rear defenses" are going to take a beating. Sounds like the AI will be tough to beat. Sounds like fun. Perhaps CM needs a computerized voice that will say "Man, now I AM pissed!" right before submitting its own orders.

[Guest John Maragoudakis]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>and this was an INTENSE assault<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Man does this sound like an aggressive game. Ferocious. I'm tempted to enlist.

[Guest Big Time Software]

The curse of the Game Developer is never having enough time to play what you are working on Charles and I haven't played against each other in any real sense. I suspect that I will kick his ass, of course , but who knows!

The AI plays a mean game of combined arms. I saw it do several brilliant things the last game, including shifting most of its armor from one flank to the other when the fighting shifted. Worse (for me) was the fact that it kept the armor out of harm's way (initially). One thing I managed to do was sneak/crawl a Panzerschreck team behind two Shermans that were pounding my positions from a safe distance. I was lucky because the PS team happened to be in a great starting position for this. I managed to grease one Sherman this way, but after I fired (thus revealing my position), a Rifle Squad boogied back from the front firing on the move. This kept my PS team off balance and they couldn't get a shot off at the second Sherman, which was now taking GREAT interest in what just happened to its burning neighbor. When the Rifle Squad got closer my PS team (Green Experience) tossed up their hands and surrendered. Dang!

BTW, Charles just told me that he did the tweaks we talked about, and so I expect that next time I play this one I will get my ass handed to me if I am not a bit more lucky with the initial firefight.

Steve

[Thomas Davie]

Steve; thanks for your detailed post. I appreciate it. One question that is brought up is that of flanking or crossfires. You said that receiving multiple incoming fire from various angles matters in the game (as it should and does). Does the AI specifically attempt to setup crossfires, recognizing that this is 'good' to do or does it 'pour on' the fire and if a crossfire happens, so be it.

Reason I ask is pretty obvious. I KNOW that this is good and can attempt to set up or maneuvere into a position where this can and will happen, but the AI?

Thanks

Tom

[Fionn]

A US force was attacking a village.

I set up a platoon to the south of the road and another to the north.

The platoon in the north got hit by Sherman 75s (two of them) shelling it from just outside Panzerfaust range (clever AI) with infantry in between the tanks and my infantry so I couldn't sally forth and get a quick shot off..

Anyways in the south I was facing only infantry. I was very happy with myself as I did a semi-ambush and hurt a platoon of US.

Well, the AI decided to attack me. It gave up the frontal attack and worked its infantry forward along the road in a wooded depression until they were within 60 metres or so of the houses..

It also broke some infantry, quite deliberately, into a house just to the north of my southern defensive position. At the same time an MG which it had sneaked around my southern flank opened fire into the southern side of my position.

I had a platoon 30 metres north of my southern position, an MG about 150 metres south of it and a mauled platoon in front.

As I was pinned the mauled platoon assaulted and broke into my positions before using close assault AND overwatch to clear each of my infantry platoon's houses in turn while using fire from the flanks to pin the guys in those houses.

In this case the AI switched an infantry platoon from the north of the road to the south and deliberately set it up in flanking positions/ It deliberately set up an MG in a flanking position with a straight view down the road (there's no way on earth it could have put the MG there by chance.. this was planned) and then it used suppressive fire and a quick assault with overwatching platoon mates to take each house in turn.

If a human player had done that for me I'd have told him he played a good game. I beat it due to getting some quick reinforcements but it isn't the sort of moronic AI we're used to.

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Guest John Maragoudakis]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>there's no way on earth it could have put the MG there by chance.. this was planned<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's quite intelligent that it feels kind of spooky.

[Fionn]

You want to see spooky?

Just wait till you see a tank 100 metres from your position out of Panzerfaust range and so call up a panzerschreck and watch the enemy tank (if it spots the schreck) suddenly reverse the hell out of there, back into cover and then re-appear a lot farther back out of schreck range WITH a buddy and blast the building to pieces.

That happened to me in that game. The AI moved tanks from one flank to another as resistance to its advance increased in various sectors.

Hell it was even smart enough, at the beginning of the battle NOT to drive a tank straight into the town even though absolutely none of my forces were visible. I had a panzerfaust ambush set up behind the first few houses. The tank got to within about 40 metres of the beginning of the village on the road and then turned north towards the US infantry which had been moving up.

let's talk sinking feelings

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[This message has been edited by Fionn (edited 10-20-99).]

[Guest John Maragoudakis]

Well it seems that it is extremely important to shift forces and keep the cpu in the dark. I wonder if I can bait it, if it becomes predictable. Sounds like a deadly cat and mouse game.

[Fionn]

Well seeing as its not a cheating AI my best advice is to treat it like an average to good human player (which is saying a lot cause I have publicly called most AIs worthless and witless).

Basically I don't think it is going to become an opponent to Manstein in military genius polls BUT if you do something stupid or you rush a move or you don't fully pin the enemy you will be badly hurt.

It should be noted that most of the AI examples that have been given by others and ALL of mine are of the AI in the attack..Traditionally the AI does very poorly in the attack so that it is doing well with a force equivalent to the human players is a good sign (none of this.. the human has 1 company vs 1 battalion crap).

I'm going to play a game now where I attack and it defends. We'll see how it goes.

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[CoolColJ]

Fionn

Please keep us posted on the details on this game

I love hearing this stuff...until I get to experience this myself...finally an AI that I'll respect for beating me

CCj

[Guest Big Time Software]

Although nothing about the AI is *perfect*, you are far more apt to see a brillant move than a really dumb one. In other wargames I rarely, if ever, see anything I would even call "great", and generally rate most things as "lame" and frequently "idiotic". So by comparison, in relative terms, CM's AI is fantastic. Comparing it to a human is natural, but not really fair (or a good test vs. other games).

On my own count, last night I got a M18 Hellcat down a road, spotted a SPW 251 and fired at it. Missed! The HT went into revers and disappeared in the woods. I ventured my Hellcat out a little further, but still no enemy HT. Went out even further the next turn, about 100m beyond my infantry cover, but still couldn't see the bastard. So I reversed and went back into friendly positions. I didn't want to risk my TD for a stupid HT, but although I didn't kill it the HT was no longer firing at some of my guys. I turned off Fog of War, and there the HT was. Deep in Scattered Trees, sitting perfectly still, knowing that death awaited it. I had to exit the game at that point, but I was impressed. I have seen much better stuff than this too, just that was the most recent

Thomas... I don't think the AI intentionally sets up crossfire per se (i.e. calculating that x + y + z = x-fire) but maybe it does. What it does do is set units up in positions that would lend themselves to cross fire opportunities. I am constantly getting shot at or assaulted from multiple angles at the same time. And let me tell you, that SUCKS! I have seen entire platoons vanish in minutes in such situations, yet they were holding out just fine before I got flanked. And that is JUST the way I expect it would go in real life during an assault at least. One minute your fine, next... devistation.

Steve

[Fionn]

Steve,

I've had numerous occasions when I've had assaults come in from 45 degree or more off-front. The MG was just the most extreme case of this because he was literally a few metres behind my front on my left flank.

My game as the US so far is umm bloody !!!

Will post more in a couple of hours when I finish it.

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers