Cormand Posted September 6, 1999 Share Posted September 6, 1999 BTS have stated that the sum of two half-squad's firepower, morale and range will be less than the full squad's. So my question is: How would a five man half-squad compare to an ordinary (ten man) squad which has taken five casualties? Cormand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 7, 1999 Share Posted September 7, 1999 Hard to say. The one that lost 5 men would probably be a little worse as their morale would be hit. It is tough to break up a fighting unit into two parts for any length of time, but it is much tougher to see half of your squad wiped out. As a side note, the Germans had squads of 8, 9, and 10 men depending of the type of unit. Man was doing the German TO&E "fun" Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bobb Posted September 7, 1999 Share Posted September 7, 1999 It seems to me that a pair of half squads in command and control of their organic squad leader and platoon leader should function as well as a whole squad. Or a half squad squad with its organic leader should have half the firepower and all the responsiveness of a whole squad. But I don't recall squad leaders being represented separately. So I suppose that is the problem with that aspect. But what about being in control of their platoon leader and sufficiently close together to be in effective contact so their inherent leadership still functions? A whole squad at either full or 2/3 strenth has enough people to employ fire and manuever tactics at least against against another squad or crew. Or is this capability incorporated in the squad's functionality in the game? I seem to recall an earlier statement that WWII squad tactical doctrine did not include fire and manuever. I would bet that neverthe less it was done. Even two men were enough to employ the technique in close quarters where cover minimised exposure to supporting enemy positions. Somewhere I read the account of just two GIs mounting an assault on a much larger number of Germans located in buildings successfully. Audacity was their main tactic, but one did provide cover for the other. I believe it was paratroopers in Normandy. Certainly not the normal thing. Of course Fionne's two surviving squad members sorta ended simularly performing in their attack. Abstractedly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 7, 1999 Share Posted September 7, 1999 Fire and move tactics were done, even if they weren't part of training (would have to check). In any case, we do model this. Units with high rates of fire (US units and something like an SMG squad) can fire and move at the same time. A rifle squad with bolt action rifles can only fire OR move. The point about keeping squads together is that CM is NOT a game about 1/2 squads. So we have employed some realistic, if abstract, means to disuade people from going over the top with their forces. The biggest is the combat effectiveness of the unit. 12 Garands firing in a coordinated fashion from a single firing spot are going to be more effective than 6 firing from two differen spots under different leadership. Obviously there are cases of flanking where this would not be true, but we are talking in generalities here. The other thing is that some squads (German ones in particular) were designed to use their weapons in combination with each other. The LMG would engage for supressive fire or on massed targets, while rifles and assault rifles were brought to bear on individual targets to accurately take out the enemy. Close range the MP40 would start up and join in. So if one 1/2 squad gets the LMG and the other doesn't, this throws a monkey wrench into the whole works. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Marks Posted September 7, 1999 Share Posted September 7, 1999 Steve, can a split squad be recombined? If so, can this process be done at will? Thanks. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 7, 1999 Share Posted September 7, 1999 Yes, they can be stuck backtogether again. All you need as a yard of duct tape, a wad of paper bag... no wait, I was thinking about repairs I made this weekend on something Uhm, oh yes... just have the two halves close to each other with neither one moving and both in non-panicked/broken states. They will recombine automatically. The intention of 1/2 squads in CM is to use them SPARINGLY for recon (attack) and outpost duty (defense). Doing more than this, as Fionn will tell you, is a bad idea Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted September 7, 1999 Share Posted September 7, 1999 I can confirm that it is a bad idea LOL ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolColJ Posted September 7, 1999 Share Posted September 7, 1999 Hi BTS if you have a few squads that were depleted by enermy fire etc, can they be combined to form a new composite whole squad? Sort of what happened at Arhem etc... Because it seems to me, a bit unrealistic to have 4 squads of 2 men functioning very poorly as 4 very weak squads, when 8 men is 8 men worth of firepower no matter if they were 4x2 squads or 1x8 squad. Do you understand what I'm getting at here? CCJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted September 7, 1999 Share Posted September 7, 1999 So you'd prefer two tactical units as opposed to 4 ? How would you aim to resolve leadership conflicts between these squads? That sort of thing happened in between battles but not during them.. Interpersonal rivalries are NOT the sorts of things you want to be trying to resolve during the middle of a combat, This is a bit like the prisoners thing. Nice idea but it didn't happen in the midst of a battle at all. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 7, 1999 Share Posted September 7, 1999 Fionn is correct. While a bunch of shattered forces would band together for mutual fire support, you would not get the cohesion of an organic squad. Picture 6 privates from 3 different squads. One squad barks out an order and the other two say "sure, you go right on ahead there Big Guy, we are going to sit tight right here until someone real orders us to do otherwise. And even them we might just tell him to foff" The problem here is that shattered remains are LEAST likely to go following someone they either don't know or don't respect. After the battle would be a problem too, but officers would be inolved and someone put in direct charge. Although the unit conhesion would take some time to build, there most likely wouldn't be the direct and strong problems as would be experienced in a combat situation. In CM what you do is take remains and put them in close proximity to each other for mutual fire support, or leave them in the rear, or utilize them as scouts or something like that. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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