Ken Talley Posted August 16, 1999 Share Posted August 16, 1999 I noticed that we will be able to pre-register targeting points. Will we be able to preregister points for both direct and indirect weapons? For indirect weapons will we be able to register points that are out of line of sight? My understanding is that company mortars were often registered into potential assembly areas in dead zones that direct fire couldn't access. They would be preregistered into that wooded ravine leading into your position or to hit behind that little rise 200 yds in front of your lines. Thanks in advance, Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted August 16, 1999 Share Posted August 16, 1999 The preregistered points give no bonus to direct fire weapons because they don't use coordinate systems that would allow such a benefit. However, indirect fire weapons, with or without LOS, can use artillery registration points for increased accuracy and decreased initial firing times. The out of LOS thing means you can whack areas like assembly points. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Deans Posted August 16, 1999 Share Posted August 16, 1999 I have a question about direct fire weapon registration. The Vickers Gun had a dial sight and both the 30cal and the 50 cal had what's called a T&E mech. These devices were specifically for firing at night and when targets were obscured. Seeing as how there will be night action and fog/bad weather in this game (most excellent) the inclusion of this feature would be accurate as well as useful. My second question is about the registered artillery targets. Time is something that is definately saved when using these but accuracy is something that is not gained. At the gun/mortar line it makes no difference if the target is registered or not. The numbers are just applying bearing and elevation to their weapons and firing an amount of ammo. The advantage to registered targets is that the adjustment process does not have to be executed as it is already done and the "effect fire data" is written down for easy reference. Rob Deans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted August 16, 1999 Share Posted August 16, 1999 Rob, Preregistered artillery targets in CM do indeed cause the incoming rounds to arrive much quicker. We also give them better accuracy because, IMO, less time pressure and no need for spotting rounds (and the error-prone correction cycle) also translates to better accuracy. Didn't know about the Vickers sight. I'll look into it. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Deans Posted August 17, 1999 Share Posted August 17, 1999 I don't mean to upset you by continued responses but I have such high hopes for this game and would like to see it the best it could get. "less time pressure " The time factor is simply not an issue to a man on the gun who sits in his seat or stands by his sight and turns knobs. All he hears is "Bearing!....2353 (or it could be in degrees) Elevation!......0945" Whether it is a registered target or not doesn't even enter into the situation. "and no need for spotting rounds (and the error-prone correction cycle) also translates to better accuracy." The bit on the spotting rounds is a bit eroneous...For a target to be registered accurately there is only one way to do it. Adjust the target. There are two types of reistered targets, those that are adjusted and those that aren't. Those that aren't have no guarantee that the rounds will land where they are supposed to land (no accuracy). The targets that I suspect you are refering to in the game are ones that ensure accuracy, right? They by default have been adjusted before the game starts and have been recorded by the guns and the FOO and given a number or nickname. The fact is that the registered targets have gone through the adjustment phase of the mission the same as an "on the fly" mission so they are just as accurate. Once that last adjusting round lands and the FOO is happy that it is in the right place he says "Record as target No________". Done, target registered. The benefit is of course when that target is to be fired the Effect Fire Data is already at hand as the adjustment is already done. Where have you sourced your indirect fire info? I am a mortarman and would like to know if your info is based on real world testimony or a good amount of deduction from texts and generally accepted gaming practice. Again, I am interested and not questioning for the purpose of proving anybody wrong. Thanks Rob Deans PS Don't forget to "check out" (I wouldn't lie to you) the 30cal and 50cal "Traversing and Elevating Mechanism" too. Not quite as effective as the dial sight but serves the same purpose. US Army pams are available on the net and maybe there are weapons pams there too. It'll be in there. (the 50cal that is) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted August 17, 1999 Share Posted August 17, 1999 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The targets that I suspect you are refering to in the game are ones that ensure accuracy, right? They by default have been adjusted before the game starts and have been recorded by the guns and the FOO and given a number or nickname. The fact is that the registered targets have gone through the adjustment phase of the mission the same as an "on the fly" mission so they are just as accurate. Once that last adjusting round lands and the FOO is happy that it is in the right place he says "Record as target No________". Done, target registered. The benefit is of course when that target is to be fired the Effect Fire Data is already at hand as the adjustment is already done.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Correct. This is what we're simulating. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Where have you sourced your indirect fire info?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It's basically a combination of our understanding of indirect fire practices filtered through what works best in a gaming/user interface context. Since we don't literally simulate an observer talking with a battery over a radio, and watching each spotting round land, etc., there is no SOP we can literally enter right into the game. We need to abstract it slightly so it works with the rest of the game, and at the correct scale. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Deans Posted August 17, 1999 Share Posted August 17, 1999 I'm sorry for going on. I guess my point was that registered indirect fire isn't any more accurate than indirect fire after adjustment. Thanks Rob Deans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhet Posted August 18, 1999 Share Posted August 18, 1999 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The preregistered points give no bonus to direct fire weapons because they don't use coordinate systems that would allow such a benefit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Steve, I searched back through old threads because I thought we had covered ranging stakes for MG's. It was brought up but I did not find anything as to incorperation into CM. In defensive situations preregestering direct fire from HMG's greatly improved the weapons effectiveness. Granted there was no coordinate system but there were elevation and traverse tables recorded for the "registered" location of each ranging stake. With ranging stakes, a telescopic sight and a precision traverse/elevation MG mount and you rain down some deadly accurate firepower. Also, if indirect fire recieves a bonus for "pre-registering" will direct fire weapons (AT guns, Tanks, SP guns etc.) get a bonus for bore sighting? Rob, there were some good discussions a while back regarding Arty and spotting rounds etc. I don't know if you caught them before but if you search for "FO" or "spotting round" you should be able to find them. ------------------ Rhet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRourke Posted August 18, 1999 Share Posted August 18, 1999 It seems to me that many static weapons (that is, weapons that haven't moved since before the scenario began) should get fire bonuses. Given time, an MG crew would be able to place their weapon in the perfect spot, with little dead ground, with the longest possible lanes of grazing fire. An AT gun might be bore sighted, or at the least the crew would have gotten a better idea to the range to where the enemy might appear. Any static bonus though should be directly tied to the troop quality. Obviously a green mg crew won't be able to do much more, no matter how long they have to set up. I suppose a green AT gun crew might get more of a bonus, since its the elite guys who probably know the range and angle well enough without a few hours beforehand to figure it out. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Deans Posted August 18, 1999 Share Posted August 18, 1999 "An AT gun might be bore sighted" Chris, do you mean registered to fire at a specific target? "Granted there was no coordinate system" Rhet, quite right. I don't know if you are familiar with the procedure but here it goes. The way to register (accuratly) an MG target is to adjust fire so that the bullets land where you want them. An FUP, gap in tree line, down a gully or any other likely place where the enemy might lurk in the future. You then set the dial sight or T&E mech and record the bearing and elevation that it reads. It is important that the dial sight does not actually point at the target but rather at an aiming point or stake close to the gun. Once this is done then the target can be "revisited" at night or low vis by setting the sight to the target's data and laying the MG by moving the gun so the sight (that is set) points at the aiming stake. The gun now points at the target and fire will be effective and can be adjusted by applying corrections to the sight. It may sound like a lot but it is very effective and simple once mastered. The smae priciples apply to the T&E on the 30cal and 50cal. It is much more simple in its mechanics but suffers from less effective fire due to its inherent sloppiness in the actual mechanism. It also can only do this procedure within a limited arc of about 45 degrees. The over lying concept in all this is the targets, once registered, are only good while the gun is in the same location. If you move it then you have to fire the targets agin from the new position and record the new data. This process actually doesn't take very long and, though most effective in a defnsive posture, can be used in the attack. "there were some good discussions a while back regarding Arty" Thanks I'll give it a try. I only made the comments because of what I read in the previous posts about registered targets giving an accuracy bonus to the fire put down on them. Good conversation as usual... Rob Deans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted August 18, 1999 Share Posted August 18, 1999 Rhet, The markers we have are strictly intended to simulate artillery registration points, and that is why they have no effect for direct fire weapons. As for DF weapons on defense... that is a tough one. We are trying to think of how this can be done. Units can not get a bonus simply because they have not moved (someone in a HT or on the road with then qualify). Foxholes aren't a good indication of defensive positions because they can be taken over by the other side or another unit. All other solutions we have come up with would involve very cumbersome interface, which we will not do. So we still are thinking on this one Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted August 18, 1999 Share Posted August 18, 1999 Well, since pre-registered targets are something I would expect only to see when the troops on defense had enough time to really prepare their defenses, and definitely not something which is done under incoming enemy fire ("hey, let's preregister that target over there, Corporal... Corporal...?" - "That 88 snapped his head off, Sir." - "Uh... ok, forget what I said, let's RUN!"), I would expect that such a bonus in CM should be given only to the defender in a attack/defend type of scenario, and only - for the defenders units - as long as they don't move/run/crawl I have, as usual, no clue however, how something like that could be translated into code... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted August 18, 1999 Share Posted August 18, 1999 How about a simple statement that any MG or AT gun in a pillbox or bunker gets the pre-registration bonus. it seems to me that if I've had time to build a big bunker I would pre-register my firing points. Any other MG, i.e. one in a foxhole for example, wouldn't be pre-registered since I doubt it would have been in place for quite that long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted August 18, 1999 Share Posted August 18, 1999 Small correction: direct-fire weapons in CM do get an accuracy bonus when fired at a target that is near one of the pre-registered markers. For gameplay simplicity, these markers serve a double-purpose: for artillery preregistration and for boresighting. So antitank guns can, indeed, prepare for enemies coming through particular chokepoints. (My fault for not telling Steve I did this ). Also, I just added code that gives HMGs a firepower bonus at longer ranges, provided they're on the defensive and have not moved. The increase begins around 400m and grows as distance increases. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted August 18, 1999 Share Posted August 18, 1999 Excellent attention to detail . So if I cover a choke point with multiple interlocking AT guns, tanks guns and have my arty ready in the rear and have a pre-registered target point in the centre of the choke point (say a small gap between two major hills) I'd get quick artillery calls and more accurate AT and MG fire . Sounds like a nice touch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted August 19, 1999 Share Posted August 19, 1999 Hey Charles, you better cut that out! After all, I am writing the Manual you know Hehe... well, it does give us a good excuse to get together over a bunch of beers and a notebook to make sure I have everything, right? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Posted August 19, 1999 Share Posted August 19, 1999 Also, I just added code that gives HMGs a firepower bonus at longer ranges, provided they're on the defensive and have not moved. The increase begins around 400m and grows as distance increases. Are you saying that a HMG has more firepower at 500m than at 400m? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted August 19, 1999 Share Posted August 19, 1999 Rex, I think what Charles is getting at is that from 400m on outward that a HMG that hasn't moved (has never moved?) will get a firing bonus in comparison to one that recently has, not that the firepower of a given HMG that hasn't moved will be more effective at 500m vs. 400m. Steve/Charles, Can the HMG's or other MG's be preregestered into the target markers, or just the AT / artillery type of guns? Finally, I'd have to say I agree w/ what I think I'm hearing from several folks above in that once a HMG or other major weapon moves, it loses all bonus effects for boresighting into preregistered markers, etc. In the case of the MG's maybe a small accuracy bonus could be regained after being moved and becoming established in its new position for a couple of turns and/or firing at the same target for more than one turn. However, any reference to firing on the preregistered/boresighted marker areas should definately be lost. Regards, Mike D aka Mikester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Deans Posted August 19, 1999 Share Posted August 19, 1999 Guys, this sounds excellent. It's just made my day (I am but a simple lad) To confirm, when you say "boresighting" you mean that the MG is registered to that target? The reason why I ask is because the actual meaning of the term is the process by which the sight unit (telescope/iron sights) is/are harmonized with the bore of the weapon. It has nothing to do with the target it is shooting at. I think the term is being used here to reflect the registration of targets, am I right? Thanks Rob Deans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted August 19, 1999 Share Posted August 19, 1999 Rob, yes you're correct. they're talking about registration. What Charles means is that an MG which has registered targets will decline in accuracy less past 400 metres than one which has no registration bonus. The mG will still be weaker at 500m than 400 m but it will not be as weak as one which had not registered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted August 19, 1999 Share Posted August 19, 1999 The way I see it Rex is that if the MG hasnt moved, this has allowed the gunner to range the weapon. This means that, although the weapon with not have any more penetraction capability as the same weapon that has move (at the same range), it will have more chance of the round hitting the target. In essence this means that the MG that hasnt moved will have a greater chance of killing a target at the greater range, but, if that targets armour cant be penetrated at that range by that weapon then neither MG will be able to get a kill, no matter how many round hit. I image the crew moral may be affected though. Anyways, thats the way I read it, my not be correct though I like the idea of the 'kill zones' guys with the predesignated areas, this is great! Damn, I really cant wait to play this thing, I think its going to bring a whole new meaning to the word tactics, and unit usage for that matter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted August 19, 1999 Share Posted August 19, 1999 KwazyDog is correct. +400m range an MG that has been ranged will be more effective (higher FP rating). It does not change the qualities of the weapon itself, including penetration abilities. I can see you might be confsued with this as most wargames only have a generic FP rating that stands for a dozen different factors. CM simulates many factors seperately Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhet Posted August 19, 1999 Share Posted August 19, 1999 Charles, An excellent solution! Very simple and yet models the advantages pretty well. I especially like the MG solution. Will the Gerries recieve a better bonus due to the fact that the Lafette mount was specifically designed (utilizing a precision elevating and traversing mechanasim) to provide highly accurate fire for pre-registered targets? ------------------ Rhet [This message has been edited by Rhet (edited 08-18-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted August 19, 1999 Share Posted August 19, 1999 The MG42 in the HMG role is very accurate indeed. I had the chance to fire one over open sights a couple of weeks ago, and MAN... put the rounds right where I wanted 'em. Looking at the .30cal and .50cal guns firing you could totally see the difference. Their tripods had to be weighed down with sandbags (the .50 really bucked!), while my nice little HMG42 hardly budged. This meant that when I went to squeeze off another $5 worth of ammo it went right where the other $5 batch went Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted August 19, 1999 Share Posted August 19, 1999 Hehe, and out of curiousity Steve how many round do you get from one of those things for $5 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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