BDW Posted May 9, 1999 Share Posted May 9, 1999 What kinds of things will make light at night in CM? I don't know what you call them, but I was thinking about those "flare" type things that you see in war movies. You know - they shoot up in the air and then glow with that super bright white light and light up large portions of the battle field. Maybe they are even on little parachutes...? I am not sure.....just thought it would be very cool to have those things in CM to get a look at the enemy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 10, 1999 Share Posted May 10, 1999 You are, I think, talking about "starlights". I'm not sure that is what they were called in WWII, but it is the same thing. Yes, we plan on including such illumination devices. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fionn Kelly Posted May 10, 1999 Share Posted May 10, 1999 I think ya'll mean flares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Maragoudakis Posted May 10, 1999 Share Posted May 10, 1999 Trip flares would be nice during night missions. Just allocate some to the defensive force to be placed before play begins. Did they have them in WW2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixman Posted May 10, 1999 Share Posted May 10, 1999 The actual terminology is "starshells". They may be fired from mortars and produce a hot white burning phosphorous suspended from a small parachute. They could light a significant patch of ground for as long as it took to descend. Flares also use phosphorous, but just streak across the sky. They are used for signalling rather than illuminating enemy targets. Starshells are a must for simulating night fighting. Played a central role in most night scenarios in Squad Leader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDW Posted May 10, 1999 Author Share Posted May 10, 1999 Yeah "starshells" is what I was thinking of. I wonder what they will look like in CM, considering the fact that a while ago Steve said that shadows and other similiar lighting effects (like reflections of fire and muzzle flashes on the landscape) will not be included. So what I am picturing in light of that old info is a starshell that goes up and just kind of brightens a portion of the map (like turning up the gamma) with the appropriate level spotting markers popping up in the lighted area. How cool would it be, though, to have those shadow effects like you see in the old WWII movies of night combat? I've seen shots where the starshell is moving along really fast and the shadows on the ground are changing shape very quickly. It is a very spooky and diconcerting effect and looks really cool! Especially because the light to shadow ratio is so high with those starshells burning so bright. Very cool effect. Too much to hope for in a first release to be sure....! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 11, 1999 Share Posted May 11, 1999 Thanks Pixman! Typing "starlight" didn't quite feel right to me, but I didn't feel like spending 5 minutes finding the right name in a book BDW, we think that the starshells will work just as you described, without the shaddows of course. All dark and gloomy, then POP, a little circle of light for x seconds. But since we haven't coded night yet, I can't comment on how the starshells will ACTUALLY work. You will also see tracers and stuff, and THAT should be cool! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted May 11, 1999 Share Posted May 11, 1999 Uh oh... simulating night battles is pure hell I can imagine. Just think about the problems all the boardgames have - tons of rules... and CM has to deal with it in 3D... E.g. when a house is on fire, it will provide illumination for a certain area for a longer time, right? How about a tank in front of the house but outside of the illuminated area? Will the shadow be visible against the burning house anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDW Posted May 11, 1999 Author Share Posted May 11, 1999 I remember watching a house burn down at night. Despite the intensity of the flame, it didn't exactly light up the whole neighborhood. Granted there was a lot of smoke, but still, the light from the flames was nothing like those starshells. So I guess my point is I won't be too disappointed if they don't have the VRAM to make the burning buildings in CM light up the areas around them. Of course, I think Steve should research the "lumens" (or whatever) given off by flame and compare it with the lumens given off by starshells. I'd be curious to see what the facts are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRourke Posted May 11, 1999 Share Posted May 11, 1999 This is well beyond the scope of the game, but my guess would be that things on fire would hurt your vision more than they would help, especially if the moon was up. Like you said, BDW, a house on fire doesn't throw much light, but looking at it sure would kill your night vision. BT: Can a units spotting abilities be affected by what they already see? For example, a koenig tiger in sight is something hard to take your eyes off of, even if it isn't firing at you yet (heck, prolly even if you're german). Green squads especially I would imagine would have trouble keeping disciplined enough to ignore something really interesting. I don't really think this is all that worth simulating, but knowing you guys I figured there was a chance it was already in there. Chris R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 11, 1999 Share Posted May 11, 1999 I have to give you guys the dreaded "To Be Determined" answer on night fighting. For sure it will be in, but we really haven't done anything with it yet. This includes firming up what will and will not be included. So whatever I could say now would be pretty much pulled out of my backside Since we don't want to mislead anybody, I will not be commenting on night fighting features until we are more prepared to do so constructively. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted May 11, 1999 Share Posted May 11, 1999 BDW, Chris: I am in night vision business and have quite a bit of experience with seeing things at night, with or without night vision units A house on fire gives very bright illumination, provided that of course it's not just a small fire inside of it (and the only thing coming out is smoke). But since fires in CM mean BIG fires (see the flamethrower discussion), one should assume that in the game the whole house is burning and the flames are well visible outside. Starshells are indeed quite bright, but not brighter than a house on fire. They have the advantage of being high in the air, therefore multiplying their illumination effect. A house on fire (or, e.g. a burning tank) on the other side is actually TOO bright - i.e. looking straight at it will cause your pupils to close, making the area around it appear darker. However, anything in front of the flames (imagine a straight line from the fire to you with a tank in between) will be clearly visible as a shadow. Also, when you are with the back to the burning house (i.e. not looking into the flames) you will be able to see quite a large area illuminated. If you are interested I can pull out some "lumen" numbers from documents I have in the office to compare the effects... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDW Posted May 11, 1999 Author Share Posted May 11, 1999 That is interesting. Hmmm... when I was watching the house burn my pupils must have closed up a bit becuase it didn't seem that bright and the neighborhood looked relatively dark. That makes sense. I suppose the deal with the starshell is that you aren't looking right at it, so it seems like it is giving off more light because your eyes have no adjusted to it. I think you should definitely post those numbers - especially because night combat has not been finished by BTS yet. Also, I think the sillouhette effect you described should be included in CM in some way, shape or form, as it seems pretty important. What do you think, Steve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Jenkins Posted May 11, 1999 Share Posted May 11, 1999 In the Army, we were taught to scan at night and close our shooting eye. Less disciplined troops have more trouble at night. Although the fear level is higher, there would be special problems for conscripts. The two types of flares are gound and air. Air flares increase counter-battery risk. You may wish toabstract which types are used,and just have an area illuminated. That is, unless there is to be some counter-battery play. Remember, machinegun tracers look higher than they actually are. Tracers are made by applying luminescent paint which burns off and rises from the round. The hot paint rising in the air is especially prominent with machineguns. ------------------ CLIMB TO GLORY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lokesa Posted May 12, 1999 Share Posted May 12, 1999 On sillouhettes, Moon was talking about the effect from a lights source behind objects at night, how about units sillouhetted against the sky in daytime? I guess my question is: is background considered for spotting? If it is should targetting also be affected? I assume that level of spotting is a variable in some targetting equation anyways and that if it were coded in to affect the spotting it would in form affect the targetting equation do a degree proportiantly less than it's affect on the spotting equation itself, right? If sillouhettes are coded in for night would you be able to use the same code (modified perhaps) for day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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