killmore Posted November 11, 1999 Share Posted November 11, 1999 My Story: On the first turn after m-18 appeared they killed tiger on 18 second 2 Stug by 45 second and 2 half-trucks before the end of the turn. I also hit one or two half trucks with mortar. Game over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K_Tiger Posted November 12, 1999 Share Posted November 12, 1999 Hi guy`s why all of your`s looks only at the penetration stats in your books?? dont forget the better german iron (esp. for the Tigers) you cant compare the 100mm front armor from a Tiger to the same where Allied Tanks used. I have a pic from a Tiger who got a hit from a 76,2mm gun (dont know the Range) and the bullet scratched only 3-5 mm, in your books you can read, that the ® 76mm gun hase a pent. rate of 90mm at 500m. I will not made any cricism about the realistic from the game and what "really" happend on the Battlefield (if the game say`s the 17 pounder can destroy a Tigers front upper Hull, I take it like it is) but my opinnion is, that you hade a really low chance to do this at over 500meters. The most I miss in Wargames like CM is...they forget to include the option, that the german uses better rangefinder and optics. This is verry important esp. on longer ranges. Fionn: I belive you know that the amerikans hade the same problem with the Tungsten like the germans and they r happy if they get some of it. Also I read here about the weak Tiger VIB side Armor the 80mm plus sloped is enougth to stop the most Bulletts you can exspect. Dont forget, only 20% of all KTigers r killed by ennemy tanks mostly on the east front. To the CM-Brothers..175mm front armor for the Jumbo?? little bit high or?? 150 must be enougth. For the "last defense" to win you need only to put your tiger behind the woods (ca. 1300m) with a little Los to the entire points of the Hellcats and you can kill one after one easely. Greetings Der König der Tiger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingtiger Posted November 12, 1999 Share Posted November 12, 1999 K___Tiger, I think you have something. I have always thought German (Bavarian?) steel was superior. Fionn, Hopefully you can fill us in on this. Richard Kalajian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 12, 1999 Share Posted November 12, 1999 Hiya K_Tiger, Armour and shells. Damn I'm liking this board more and more K_Tiger what you saw was the result of the 7.62cm shell SHATTERING. That was not a penetration it was a dent due to shattering (or ricochet but since its a Tiger we both know ricochets were rare ). You come up against a few issues here: 1. US and UK test plate was of a lower Brinnel Hardness Rating than German armour SO if a 17 lber could penetrate 100 mm of UK test plate it might only be able to penetrate 85mm of actual GERMAN ARMOUR (although this varied from tank to tank as some German armour had flaws). 2. Tungsten-cored shells were not only rare for the US BUT their worse T/D ratio made them more likely to ricochet although if they didn't they were more likely to kill. 2. APCBC shells of the US and UK had poor mettalurgical controls and so they shatter FAR too often, especially when fired at high velocities ( can we see why the Hellcat shells shatter when hitting the Tiger so often now? I think we can ). 3. Weak Tiger armour .. Certainly thick compared to the Panther and others but what I think people meant was it was comparatively weak. 4. Jumbo, I think you'll find that the data is accurate. As a test. How much armour would a Churchill Crocodile have? Front facing and side facings. You'll be surprised. People think the Tiger was the most heavily armoured tank up until the Tiger II etc came out. This simply isn't so. 5. yes, you're right.. There again you see how realistic tactics work realistically in CM To everyone else Quality of steel IS taken into account, striking velocity vs shell quality is taken into account, the T/D ratio etc etc are all taken into account. To quote from an email Charles sent me a while ago "CM does indeed factor BHN (Brinnell Hardness Number) into its armor penetration algorithms, as well as the lower-than-expected metallurgical quality of most Allied APCBC ammunition. Also, you probably know this, but HVAP ammo, due to its subcaliber nature, achieves a much higher (i.e. worse) T ratio against armor plate and so it is a lot more likely to ricochet off highly-sloped plate (like a Panther glacis) than a normal round would be. Although usually this tendency is more than offset by its otherwise greater penetrating power." He then goes on to say all this (and more) is modelled . Just check out the "German tank offset" thread going on to see all the cool stuff being modelled. With these details being done right it all adds to the gameplay you know? ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K_Tiger Posted November 14, 1999 Share Posted November 14, 1999 I in that once more I do not have so much knowledge over the American tanks, but to have believe read, that the jumbo had only maximum 150mm armor-plating (say me a source if Im wrong). That is not so important however also. As mentions, disturbs me more the absolutely good Hit percentage of the Hellcats. Usually if they arrive, they meet with the first shot also with large removal and that can not be. I have tried this yesturday again(tigers 1000 meters removes set up) almost each second shot the Hellcats made hits, the tiger needed 14 shot around all three. If one considers, that the Tigercrews consisted of veterans (comapared to the "normal" US crew) and disposed of better Optic, I think, there must be improved still some (especially when so much value is set on reality). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcarey Posted November 14, 1999 Share Posted November 14, 1999 K_Tiger I've had the exact opposite experience with the 'Cats. The last time I played they fired *12* shots at the tiger and missed with every one. Needless to say, they weren't around next turn to try again... Luck seems really important in armor meetings at long range. I've seen it go both ways. My tiger has missed a bunch too. - Bill Carey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 14, 1999 Share Posted November 14, 1999 K_Tiger, Check Hunnicut or any other good book covering Allied tanks. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts