Guest Captain Foobar Posted November 27, 1999 Share Posted November 27, 1999 I have found that my CM toolbar gives me a different victory % values, when compared w/ what my pbem opponent is being told. Is this the equivalent of platoon and company commanders being shy about reporting bad news?? or am I missing something. And yes, I assume that the values are corrected at the end of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 27, 1999 Share Posted November 27, 1999 Actually this is a really great piece of FOW. Think of it this way... Say there are three VLs on the map. You are in one and can see Germans across an open field at one of the other two. The third VL is in some woods and you do not have LOS to it. The German player has forces there so HE holds 2 VLs to your one giving him 66% victory (roughly assuming that losses have been roughly equal).. You, on the other hand only know that he holds one and you hold one. The third VL (in the woods) appears neutral to you since you don't see any Germans near it.. So your VLs are going to show you and your opponent with roughly 50% of the victory points each. Think how bad it would be for the game if you could tell he had troops at the 3rd VL just by watching the score eh? There are lots of complexities in CM which it's going to take people time to figure out. The ability for BOTH the Germans and the US to BOTH think they own a VL when it is in fact neutral is one of them which I've seen happen a few times in games . ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDW Posted November 27, 1999 Share Posted November 27, 1999 That reminds of a question I was going to ask you, Fionn. I notice that the VL flags change during the game. For example, in LAst Defense, I pulled by forces back into the town the first turn. The flags turned to the grey "?". Pretty soon, though, they changed to German flags. Was this becuase the game was telling me something I should not know, or is it because I had LOS to those VLs and my troops knew that the enemy had taken them over? I can't remember if I had spotted any Germans entering those VLs or not. I think you know what I am trying to ask here. thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 27, 1999 Share Posted November 27, 1999 Well the VL situation in CM isn't like it is in Close Combat or SP where basically the last unit to enter the hex (or the flag area) confers ownership. In CM ownership of a VL is determined by who has combat-ready forces near it. E.g. If the VL is in the middle of a street and one platoon of Germans is on the right side and you are on the left then the VL is neutral regardless of who was "on" it last. IF the Germans don't see the US troops (lets suppose the US are hiding) then the German player will see the VL as being German while the US player sees it as being neutral (since he knows he has forces right beside it). What happened in your case was that you had NO troops within about 200 metres or so but obviously the Germans pushed some infantry through the woods or pushed some HTs or tanks down the gap there. That would be enough to give that VL to the Germans. E.g. Let's say your nearest troops are 200 metres away and a German Armoured SS Panzergrenadier platoon drives serenely past the VL. Who do you think is in the best position to control the VL? The Germans obviously Actually your situation is interesting... Your troops were so far from the VL that they could no longer control it so it was neutral. As soon as any German troops came close it reverted to their control. One key factor here is to forget about "stepping" on VLs. Concentrate on having forces nearby able to bring effective fire on the VL. If you have a platoon within a 100 metres or so of the VL with good fields of fire to it then that VL might become neutral but unless the German parks a whole load of troops on the VL or wipes out your platoon he'll never own it. Summary... they don't need to enter it to control it. If you have no troops nearby and they advance past it (so it's in their rear) then obviously they control it ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDW Posted November 27, 1999 Share Posted November 27, 1999 Thanks, Fionn. It is always good when you reassure us that CM has been designed with good old fashioned common sense It is really quite refreshing to play a game that does not force you to constantly "suspend disbelief" in order to enjoy yourself. Follow-up question for you: One thing I noticed the first time I played Chance Encounter was both sides were SO depleted in forces at the end of the game that ALL of the VLs had reverted back to grey "?" flags. Was this because there were simply not enough men on the battlefield to control *anything*? I'll also ask you: is the ebb and flow of the VL's taken into consideration for the score? In other words, does the fact that I controlled most of the VL's for most of the game get me more points? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACKHORSE_C16 Posted November 27, 1999 Share Posted November 27, 1999 Fionn, First, if I'm getting on peoples nerves with my observations please say so and I will cease and dessist. I am judging this game as I do all, and that is from real life experience. I understand the limitations of coding so I really don't expect much. But I do enjoy these discussions, they show people are thinking and I like to see people think. I feel there should be no flags indicating VL's. A battlefield has only so many pieces of significant terrain and that fact doesn't change for your nationality, with exception of your overall plan. i.e. Weak frontal for a strong flanking maneuver. And just because you bypassed the three farm houses doesn't mean you control them, you have to get eyes on and feet in. I once hid three M-3 CFV's in a town overlooking a bridge in Germany during REFORGER. Two of them in barns offered at the locals offering, along with coffe and cigarettes and tales of the east and west front. Anyway, We let an Aufklare platoon and a Leopard Platoon over and through. After we felt they felt good we tagged two leopards and two luchs from the rear and ran like hell to the flank where Two M1 platoons waited in a Defense. The Luchs and the Leo that were left did as they should have and tried to mantain contact by pursuing us only to find that defense which took another luchs and the remaining Leo. Never assume. It is a very ols deception to let your enemy bypass you, the trick is not wait there in hiding to long or too short. Happy Gamimng! Oh and Fionn, Please look out your window there is a world out there. It seems you live here in this chat room. Just joking!! Would like to know where you do most of your historical research? ------------------ Allons!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted November 27, 1999 Share Posted November 27, 1999 Blackhorse - Victory flags works just like that in the game. You need to be on location to claim a particular flag. If you leave, the flag reverst back to neutral as soon as you have no eyes on it to make sure that no enemy is around. On the other hand, if the enemy is close enough (and strong enough), the flag will also revert back to neutral. And, there are no victory flags in campaigns at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACKHORSE_C16 Posted November 27, 1999 Share Posted November 27, 1999 Cool, thanks for the reply. ------------------ Allons!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 27, 1999 Share Posted November 27, 1999 Blackhorse_C16, Umm, I don't know where your first line comes from. It seems you think I don't like you or something whereas to my knowledge I don't think I've even responded to one of your posts yet. For the record I have zero problem with people coming in trying to see just how realistic CM is and how it's mechanics work. Hell, that's the name of the game. You've got to prove to yourself it'll be realistic to play to have fun with it. As for your point re@ the farmhouse that is actually EXACTLY my point. The German player (in CM) would have seen the VL at that barn the M3s were in be GERMAN. BUT you, as the US player would have known it was "neutral". Because the German didn't know you were there he would have thought he owned the VL... The game isn't going to force players to search each and every house although we both know that is the smart thing to do. It's actually pretty damned flexible and works well. To control a VL you need to have forces with eyes on it. BDW, If neither force is near enough and strong enough to "control" a VL then, yes, it will be neutral. I think you only get points for actually controlling one at game's end. Command isn't going to reward you for controlling the crossroads for the first 90% of the game but losing it at the end . ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACKHORSE_C16 Posted November 27, 1999 Share Posted November 27, 1999 The first line was just to say that I don't want to be labeled some "I think I know everything person" then no one wants to play you later. I did not mean to sound accusatory. I was just saying if your opponent is on the V.L. and hiding then the bad guys should know it until they approach it. I wish the game would come out then I could set some self designed test scenarios. Tanks for the reply Fionn. ------------------ Allons!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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