Abandoned Vehicle Problem

[Bullethead]

I was recently playing LD as the Germans. At the instant I lost my 2nd track in 2 turns to mortar fire (that's another subject...), the crew of track #3, about 50m away, freaked out and abandoned its vehicle. This particular track had taken no incoming fire for the entire scenario so far and was not damaged in any way. It was just a human failure on the part of the untermenschen crew.

OK, I thought, when they clean out their skivvies they'll get back in the track. But no such luck. The crew had rallied by the next turn but they wouldn't go back to their vehicle by themselves and I couldn't order them to do so, either. The cherry but abandoned track was simply a terrain feature, not a vehicle any more.

I think this is somewhat strange. If the crew is so panicked they don't want to do their jobs any more, then why have them rally, why give the player the ability to give them orders after they bail out? OTOH, if they re-acquire the testicle fortitude to go play infantry with their pistols, why can't they re-board their pristine chariot and continue with the mission they're actually trained for?

-Bullethead

[Beamup]

IIRC, this is one of those capabilities that will be in the full version but is not in the beta demo. You will be able to order dismounted crews to reman abandoned (though not destroyed) vehicles.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Mortar fire is too effective against open topped vehicles in the Demo. Since been fixed.

Actually, no. Crews will NOT be able to abandon vehicles and then reman them. Bullethead, SOMETHING must have whacked that HT (see below). It coud not have been abandoned in perfect working order. This is not something crews are allowed to do. If they freak out (something that wasn't coded for the demo in any case) they will turn their vehicle around and boogy out of there. They will not hop out and run away.

I suspect the US .50cal zapped your HT if the artillery didn't. A .50cal can make swiss cheese out of a SPW 251 from anything but the front (except at close range) with no problem

Steve

[Ben Galanti]

Another thing to remember is that if you can't see the .50 cal, you might not see any tracers or anything (though I think you'll hear it... I'm not sure) The crew will react to the incoming fire though, even if it's not shown.

[Dar]

Even if you can't see what hit the track, though, shouldn't you get a label describing the damage to the vehicle? You know, "Top Penetration" or "Side Upper Hull Penetration" and such.

Dar

[Ben Galanti]

Good question, do those labels show up for MG hits on halftracks when the MG is sighted? I don't know off hand...I've seen halftracks abandoned due to MG fire, but I don't remember the label popping up. I just always assumed that this was becuase the crew split before the HT was actually dead... I'll set up a .50 cal ambush of a halftrack tonight and see what happens.

[Bullethead]

OK, if BTS says something had to have whacked the track for the crew to have bailed, I'll believe them . But that still leaves the question of what happened to it.

I watched the replay about 20 times from all different angles trying to figure this one out because it was so totally unexpected. All I could see was that this crew bailed at EXACTLY the same instant as another track about 50m away brewed up from a mortar hit.

There were no incoming tracer or black dots at, or explosions near, the bailed track. OK, that could be Fog of War fire from unspotted weapons, as Ben mentioned.

However, there was no message at all popping up on the bailed track saying it had been penetrated or even hit, like there was with the simultaneous destruction of the other track. Furthermore, the vehicle info after the crew bailed just said "Abandoned," NOT "Knocked Out." IOW, there was never any indication at all that the vehicle had been damaged in any way. This is why I thought it was just a morale failure.

So, IMHO there really is some sort of problem here. Seems to me there are 2 possibilities: an interface problem and a code problem.

By interface problem, I mean the correct visual cues weren't displayed. If there was supposed to be a pop-up penetration message, it didn't appear. If the unit info should have said "Knocked Out," it didn't. If there was supposed to have been an explosion, there wasn't.

The code problem idea I have is somewhat strange. What made me think it up is the fact that I lost both tracks at EXACTLY the same instant. So I'm thinking that maybe somehow the game got confused as to which crew was in which track. IOW, when Track A blew up from a legit hit, the game for some reason thought the crew of Track B was in Track A and had them react accordingly.

The only other thing I can think of is maybe a large fragment from Track A took out Track B. Is this modeled?

-Bullethead

[johnnymo]

Bullethead, FYI the "Abandoned" label is what I've seen show up when halftracks have been hit by a .50 cal. This behavior seems reasonable to me. If I were in a halftrack and bullets started ripping thru the armor, I'd be out of that track in a second and not look back. If you stay in the vehicle, you're just establishing yourself as a target; abandon the vehicle (even though it can still drive, it'll still be a target for whatever is dicing it up) and you've got a better chance of surviving.

[Fionn]

Bullethead,

In the Alpha AAR I posted of my game against Moon I lost two HTs to 0.5 calibre fire and it was only at the end of the game when I read Martin's report that I figured that out .

An unspotted 0.5 cal HMG will rip into the side of a HT and destroy it (it will be marked as abandoned) without you seeing anything.

I've had this happen in PBEM games and this is what happened to you without a doubt.

I lost 3 HTs in 3 seconds in a PBEM game yesterday I am the unluckiest so and so around. Still, I got my revenge on the Amis with a rather brutal infantry assault by the passengers hehe

------------------

___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Bullethead]

OK, you all have made a strong case for an unspotted .50cal. However, there is some counter evidence, which I think this is probative but not conclusive, so I'll drop the "what happened" issue until I see this sort of thing happen a few more times.

But in any case, IMHO there's still a problem with damage reporting here. If a .50cal WAS penetrated the track, I'd REALLY like to see a pop-up message to that effect. Bullet holes and the sparks created when they are made are pretty obvious, so saying "front hull penetrated" isn't giving anything away. It would then be just like a tank getting hit by an unseen schreck--you get the penetration message but no idea of what hit you or where precisely it came from, although you know the general direction.

Also, Steve just said that crews won't bail unless the vehicle is actually damaged. In that case, IMHO the unit data should say "Knocked Out" instead of just "Abandoned." I already _know_ it's abandoned, I see the crew jumping out. I want to know why they did <G>.

-Bullethead

[Mark L]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Another thing to remember is that if you can't see the .50 cal, you might not see any tracers or anything (though I think you'll hear it... I'm not sure)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I, too, think you might hear the .50 cal. It's a fairly distinct and loud "hammering" sound.

In my first playing of CM (Riesberg), an MG42 opened up on a running squad from somewhere in town. It was otherwise quite at the time, so I definitely heard it. Quite eerie.

If there are lots of other sounds of battle going on, which it sounds like there may have been (i.e. mortar fire etc.), the sound may be lost in the general cacophony.

Another possibility for the HT loss is a nearby mortar airburst. I apparently lost one in LD that way. It definitely wasn't a "top penetration"). The crew also took a casualty, so I'm not sure if the HT was actually shredded or if the remaining crew member just decided it wasn't worth it. (HT was marked as "Abandoned").

Mark

[Guest Big Time Software]

Something absolutely knocked out your HTs, as the code couldn't eject them without going through that loop. I am pretty sure we don't show tracers for weapons you don't spot. Too much information on a confused battlefield. In other words, it removes FoW that should be there. As for not hearing it, there are only a limited number of sound channels, so there is a VERY good chance that you didn't hear it because something else was playing.

The reason we have "Abbandoned" is so that you know that your vehicle wasn't knocked out per se, but instead was beat up too badly to continue being used. The HT is not the best test for this logic. Think about a tank. Your main gun is damaged, your driving around, an artillery round goes off next to you, you hear the immobilized sound, the vehicle then becomes abandoned. It wasn't KO'd, but instead damaged to the point where the crew wanted out. Yes, the end result is the same, but it looked wrong to slap "Knocked Out" on the vehicle instead (as it used to a couple of months ago). So Abandoned and Knocked out are the same result from different origins. I like knowing the difference.

Steve

[Guest John Maragoudakis]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I am pretty sure we don't show tracers for weapons you don't spot. Too much information on a confused battlefield. In other words, it removes FoW that should be there<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't get it. Why can't we see tracers from an unspotted mg? That's the whole disadvantage from firing, your likely to get spotted.

[Moon]

John - you simply won't see the first couple of bursts. Depending on what is firing (MG42s are way easier to spot than a single sniper as you might imagine), the firing unit will appear within seconds and you will be able to see the tracers from then on.

[Guest John Maragoudakis]

I understand the delay between firing and spotting the unit. I just thought that the tracers could be spotted before the firing unit was. However since it's only seconds between firing and the unit being spotted, the difference is no big deal.

Thanks

[Moon]

Sometimes this is exactly what happens - you'll see the tracers first before the unit appears. It all depends. In night time scenarios, for example, tracers might be the only thing that you'll see

[Guest John Maragoudakis]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In night time scenarios, for example, tracers might be the only thing that you'll see<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds like a pretty freaky effect.

[Bullethead]

Steve:

Thanks for the clarification on "Abandoned." I guess my problem is I've played way too much Steel Panthers for want of anything better....... (hope my friends at HPS don't see that )

-Bullethead