siffo998 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 sorry to butt in with another controversial thread but maybe some of you want to join in for discussion. i`ve recently downloaded the very detailed scenario "wittmanns demise" available at the repository. i`ve become so interested in the battle that i`ve red some background infos and watched the documentary "wittmanns last battle" (a link was posted in the forums thread: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=106194&page=6 after watching the documentary one thing caught my interest. at part 4 of the documentary on you tube around 4:48 onwards (link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_692120&feature=iv&src_vid=VFlzvtYfczQ&v=Epnoe2r10iY) the host asks a so called expert of the battle: how far can a firefly shoot effectively ? the tank expert answers: "800 meters as far as 1200 meters. well i was a bit stunned. ingame the firefly can onehit kill a tiger even at ranges around 2000 meters from the front. my only explanation is that the effective range has nothing to do with the ability of the gun to destroy the tank but rather with the ability to spot it and aim at it with the 3x magnification of the gunsight. at one point of the docu a veteran gunner of the yeomanry who claimned three of the four shot tigers also mentions that the the tigers were very little in his aiming sight (they were "only" 750 meters away). this brings me back to the old question: is the ability of tanks (especially the allied ones which used mostly 3x magnification optics as seen here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/13810463/Standard-Ordnance-Items-Catalog-1944-Vol-1) of spotting/aiming at/accuracy targets far away maybe a bit overpowered ingame ? or was the so called battle expert just a tad wrong? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadgerDog Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 well i was a bit stunned. ingame the firefly can onehit kill a tiger even at ranges around 2000 meters from the front. :eek: I want you for my gunner ... Did you manage to get any video off that match? If so, can you post it for us? Thanks ... Regards, Doug 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rokko Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Ironically, at that range the Tiger can't harm the Firefly in any way (frontally at least). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siffo998 Posted December 13, 2012 Author Share Posted December 13, 2012 :eek: I want you for my gunner ... Did you manage to get any video off that match? If so, can you post it for us? Thanks ... Regards, Doug just to clarify and avoid any misunderstanding: i did not write "one shot kill" but "one hit kill" which means that one hit can destroy the tiger frontally with the fireflys guns. ingame i havent seen any one shot kills at that ranges (very seldom maybe)... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siffo998 Posted December 13, 2012 Author Share Posted December 13, 2012 Ironically, at that range the Tiger can't harm the Firefly in any way (frontally at least). well i just fired up a quick ingame test and the tiger brewed up the firefly at 2000m with no problem through the turret... maybe the upper frontal hull is a bit hard to penetrate but lower front hull and turret/weapon mount should be no problem. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil stanbridge Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 The Fireflies are Tiger killers and Tiger bait in equal measure I would say they are the most lethal allied armour at that time in the war. I tend to use mine like tank destroyers however rather than in a combined arms role. I send the 75s out with the infantry and always keep the Fireflies out of the way where possible. Even with that frontal armour they are still surprisingly vulnerable. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siffo998 Posted December 13, 2012 Author Share Posted December 13, 2012 The Fireflies are Tiger killers and Tiger bait in equal measure I would say they are the most lethal allied armour at that time in the war. well, first i do not doubt that. my concern after my own experiences ingame and with the info i have posted, is that accuracy/spotting is a bit overpowered ingame especially for the allied armor. for example john kettler posted a batallion aar (http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/utils/getfile/collection/p4013coll8/id/3582/filename/3592.pdf) from a M10 batallion in italy and the batallion commander repeatedly requests (from 1943 until the end of the aar in 1944) that the M10 need 6 to 8 magnification for the gunner optics. john also posted this link: http://www.scribd.com/doc/13810463/S...log-1944-Vol-1 and clearly pointed out that allied M10s only used 3x magnification. just for comparison the tiger used dual 2,5x and 5x magnification. maybe thats also the reason why the battle expert in "wittmanns last battle" video says that the effective range of a firefly is "only" 800-1200m...!? and maybe this also explains why the yeomanry veteran in the video said that the tigers were very little in his gunsight even though they were "only" 750m away?! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rokko Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 well i just fired up a quick ingame test and the tiger brewed up the firefly at 2000m with no problem through the turret... maybe the upper frontal hull is a bit hard to penetrate but lower front hull and turret/weapon mount should be no problem. Actually you're right. I wonder if that was a change in the latest patch, because I recall that Tigers often had problems penetrating Shermans at +1500m. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siffo998 Posted December 14, 2012 Author Share Posted December 14, 2012 Actually you're right. I wonder if that was a change in the latest patch, because I recall that Tigers often had problems penetrating Shermans at +1500m. well i`ve just ran some test rounds tiger vs firefly at 2000m and it seems like they`ve also done something regarding spotting and accuracy. the tiger has a clear edge over the firefly at these ranges. most of the test rounds the tiger spotted and koed the firefly before the firefly could spot the tiger. nice... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rokko Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 I swear, before the patch the 88mm (Both in the Tiger and Flak36) couldn't reliably penetrate any Sherman's frontal armor at ranges beyond 1600m. Now Shermans aren't even protected at 2200m+ I just wonder, did ther Sherman armor get nerfed or did the Tiger gun get boosted? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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