buddy Posted September 17, 1999 Share Posted September 17, 1999 Have to share this info, even though it is only vaguely related to combat mission... I have seen the topic of house to house fighting and extreme casualties come up from time to time - thought I'd share some semi-contradictory info on this based on one of the longest and most violent running gunfights this century perhaps. I'm referring to the ate-up snatch and grab operation in Mogadishu, Somalia earlier this decade. US Rangers, Delta Force members and others were sent in to grab some bad guys and send a message - everything went wrong and much badness followed. The Americans, considering the force it was up against, lost relatively few casualties compared to the estimated thousands of Somali wounded and dead (Red Cross estmates, actual figure not known by anyone). This may have some weight in the elite teams (recon, etc) discussion as better trained/more experienced troops seem to have less casualties. For more information on the Somali thing, check out this unbelieveable site: http://www.philly.com/packages/somalia/nov16/default16.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted September 17, 1999 Share Posted September 17, 1999 That's not a good example to use for a number of reasons not the least of which was that it was not a true block clearing operation. The Americans were trying to move or flee through an area having already snatched their prisoners when they were beset upon by the Somalis. They were not per se there to secure houses of blocks in a traditional block or hosue clearing operation as the kind we'cve been talking about on the list. "I have seen the topic of house to house fighting and extreme casualties come up from time to time - thought I'd share some semi-contradictory info.....The Americans, considering the force it was up against, lost relatively few casualties compared to the estimated compared to the estimated thousands of Somali wounded and dead (Red Cross estmates, actual figure not known by anyone). " So in this one passage we see that a single day long battle resulted in perhaps THOUSANDS of casulties. That sounds to me like fighting in built up areas can be relatively bloody! And compared to the percentage of Americans that were in the fight most had been killed or wounded in some fashion or at least rendered combat ineffective as a unit for some period of time after the fight. In fact a more interesting case is that of the 10th MD infnatry company that was the QRF for the relief. They fought a ten hour battle through the city trying to get to the Rangers and that is a pretty interesting story too.(They came through pretty good) Perhaps a better example would be the hundreds of documented bloody battles and skirmishes fought during WW2 (plus throw in a few from Vietnam, Grozny, Iran-Iraq war) where MOUT combat was incredibly bloody. Cheers... Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddy Posted September 17, 1999 Author Share Posted September 17, 1999 Los, While the Mogadishu debacle didn't start as a "block-clearing mission" it certainly turned into one by necessity. Anyway, you may have missed my point the posting - the better trained troops came out on top and suffered less casualties. - Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCrawler Posted September 17, 1999 Share Posted September 17, 1999 What the incident in Somalia shows us is that the American Military is not a police force, and that we should keep our noses out of the internal affairs of other nations... ------------------ Jon Johnson Steel Lightning Productions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted September 17, 1999 Share Posted September 17, 1999 And if that moron Les Aspen (Sec. of Defense) had given our guys the tanks they had requested weeks earlier we could have smashed through and rescued those guys when those choppers went down. Stupid socialists always get our guys killed! > Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddy Posted September 17, 1999 Author Share Posted September 17, 1999 Amen, my brother. The Clinton Administration couldn't have done more to smash the moral/combat effectiveness of our military if they set out to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGTRock Posted September 18, 1999 Share Posted September 18, 1999 I'll drink to that. You know it's funny, Christian religous persecution, execution etc had been going on for years in the 10/40 window by the muslims and the U.S. never sent in a police force then... ok this doesn't have much to do with the game but, neither does driving on the highway.. Just food for thought. Rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted September 18, 1999 Share Posted September 18, 1999 Buddy, The US special forces which went in eventually comprised two main thrusts. One was armoured and circled around the square in which the chopper went down twice (I have a map of the area with the route they took marked to prove it) whilst another tried to sneak towards the chopper via backstreets. The ones in the jeeps and other vehicles who drove around and around didn't suffer massive death rates BUT suffered a very large number of wounded, had most of their units rendered combat ineffective AND didn't cause significant harm to the Somali forces. Also they didn';t engage them in toe to toe city fighting. The group which attempted to sneak in was stopped cold by a Somali platoon-sized force when it came under heavy fire for the first time. As LOS said the real block-clearing was done by the poor bloody infantry who came in later. FWIW there's a huge difference between a deliberate clearing of each and every house in an area and driving through it at full speed. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted September 20, 1999 Share Posted September 20, 1999 "While the Mogadishu debacle didn't start as a "block-clearing mission" it certainly turned into one by necessity. Anyway, you may have missed my point the posting - the better trained troops came out on top and suffered less casualties." Obviously better trained troops will usually come out on top and suffer less casualties (given equal numbers and in similar terrain) in all situations so this is hardly a revelation which would merit CM programmers scrambling back to their code. Incidently, special forces types such as Delta, green berets, SAS, Seals etc, and rangers train up for MOUT, (they do have to teach it to regular foreign troops on occasion) but actually specialize in a very narrow subset of this genre, that is Room clearing and house clearing. WHich supports their hostage rescue-prisoner snatch type operations. They are as a rule almost never committed to the types of city fighting we are talking about in CM. That is an infantry company task. You would never commit and "waste" expensive resources such as these to the daily grind of clearing blocks. Nor are they equipped with suitable heavy weapons to sustain a task such as this without significant augmentation. If you want to see the performance of elite specialist city fighting units in high intensity urban combat, one needs look no further than Stalingrad. (Anthony Beevor, "Stalingrad", or Paul Carrell "Stalingrad" for starters good good grunt level accounts of the fighting) Prior to the launching of operation Hubertus, the Germans brought up five battalions of assault pioneers. They were Combat veteran (elite) battalions (an army level assett)which then underwent an extensive re-organization and training program in preparation for the Novenmber offiensive to clear the remaining resistance from the city. When they went into the line they were as good at clearing blocks as any ever had been (except for maybe the guys across the street) While they made good progress against the staunchest possible resistance, within two days they were pretty much wiped out. But that's a macro view. A commander goes into a city assault knowing he will suffer high casualties (and they've very rarely been wrong), but it is true that at our level, (companies and battalions), it is possible to put together a well executed block clearing operation so long as you have the support, good troops, prep time, and all the moons are aligned the right way. Cheers... Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts