Maquisard manqué

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/10/alexander-dvornikov-russian-general-who-helped-turn-tide-of-syrian-war https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/10/new-russian-war-chief-will-bring-more-brutality-in-ukraine-us-warns Lovely sounding guy.

+ the fellowship of the ring/volunteers?

Wot? Obvs it’s round! It’s a disc - with greenwich in the centre. You didn’t think it was a square did you? Numpty.

Seems a bit of a stretch tbh. Don’t think that’s the right flight path for anything US bound. They normally head NW on the shortest path over the globe. I think SW France, or anywhere in France, is too far south to be anywhere near a flight path from Poland to US.

I don’t really think the UN’s issues are anything new. Surely any steps backs can’t go further than things were in the Cold War? The SC is indeed paralysed by the tensions between camps. All rules, laws etc are actually enforced by consent. You cite two versions of coercion that can force consent. which is why the general assembly or even g20 and g70 are fora that are more telling of the global temperature. My card may already marked among some of you men of action as a moralising something or other. But the global consensus required to boot Russia out of the human rights council is indicative of what most countries think of them: that the country is run by vicious, lying murderers who can’t be trusted further than they’re thrown. I’m not sure what kind of global system you want. America does essentially rule the current one and designed it from the ground up. I hear echoes of recent US global retreat when you deride your own system.

Was the rumour of martial law being imposed only that in the end? It was weeks ago…

Oh and I forgot the rampant kleptocracy presided over by spooks turned oligarchs.

I liked but It’s basically already there isn’t it? Anyone protesting gets beaten or bullied out of a job. Any opposition is incarcerated or assassinated. The democratic system is as perverted as possible, with no barrier to indefinite rule by Putin/his heir (tbc). The media are gagged and any dissent is literally illegal. Maybe you mean more that the current and growing isolation will endure & harden? I’m not being snarky. What else could there be though?

Don’t think Brexit has any influence on that. The Uk hasn’t felt the need to consult the Eu on most adventures.

Not sure this was posted yet: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61038811 Based on reputable, serious news outlets, it feels like every area, village, town of occupation has seen the Russian army live up to pretty much the worst that’s been said about it. Obvs the quoted link isn’t from such a source but it’s shocking (so yes until validated it could be propaganda- but the fact I now doubt it, why shouldn’t I given What else they’ve done, is most important - well to me anyway!). At the risk of re-raising the bigger racist debate, but really to say I regret giving the benefit of the doubt, I can only see a small difference between this institutionalised violence, thuggery and carelessness for human life and what the Nazis did. Frankly I fear it might only take competence for the Russian army/state to replicate such systematisation. @kraze, sorry. Pretty sure you’ve said as much. I’m still (always) for a Marshall plan option but only for the sake of the future generations of Russians. This current lot appear largely poisoned, despite the protest attempts by some. This is helping me understand the frustration and bewilderment western soldiers & journalists (I.e. Gelhorn) felt when faced with the cynicism and denial of many Germans post 1944.

Don’t want to give the teacher an apple but well said Steve. And it’s not to detract from the evils that Russia is doing in/to Ukraine.

There’s likely more off camera, unless the BTR really is spraying & praying. The arty at the end of the clip suggests it wasn’t a lone tank too. Although it doesn’t look as surgical as some things have - so could be less directed?

Yes. Bolstered by immigration.

https://www.economist.com/1843/2022/03/29/i-see-their-faces-a-saboteur-hunter-in-kyiv-remembers-his-victims Interesting insight for a civvy (like me) of what it’s like for your world to flip. A lot of nuance and humanity in this piece.

Is the lack of proper NCOs a likely factor in this too? (As well as other evidence of poor discipline - littering, bunched up vehicles etc) Obvs the world doesn’t need my opinion on this but this looks a lot like reprisals. When there’s near total mobilisation and they are terrified of what lies behind every bush (partisan warfare), soldiers have often taken their fear and frustration out on any nearby civilians they can get their hands on. These crimes will be remembered, even if The Hague doesn’t catch up with the perpetrators.

Er, thanks, this could constitute something I can agree on with Kraze. I know that’s how this looks in the west but you must be missing a) the complex history and demographics that make up ethnicity b) the posts here about x people are all y. Calling all Eastern Europeans Slavs is not accurate.

Fair enough. That’s certainly what’s weird about this social media war stream. But tell me, when the dust settles, is the racism either way going to be right or ok? No. So why is it ok now?

Seeing what you’re seeing it’s understandable you’d question the basic humanity of the perpetrators. Every rational observer does but for you it’s even more. I get that. I’ve also given thought to the comments here to let it go given what you’re country is going through. I disagree. What’s the point of claiming democratic values of respect for humanity and the rule of law if you don’t try to respect them? But frankly, I’m pretty sceptical about the merit of denying the basic humanity of people. If you don’t do that, it’s got to be pretty hard to get a democracy to work as anything other than a tyrannical majority. Zelensky is popular because he keeps aloof of Putins’ quagmire of racist crap and promises the rule of law. I’d encourage you to heed his example. It’ll go further with the democratic centre of the EU and US. You’re wrong about denazification. People don’t want to know things that are hard to accept. Thats whole “big lie” thing. Ask a German, but the majority of Germans in ww2 ignored or allowed things to happen because the price to them personally was too high to question it. Denazification was about showing to ordinary Germans what was done in their name. Showing them the basic humanity of their victims. I’m now done.

Sanctions, cancelling, political ostracism: all and more - yes. Agree to the end game too. As to Lilly livered democracy, yes - they should be standing closer. But they aren’t because they did too much of that 20years ago, with less justification, and haven’t recovered from it. now to save Aragorn regurgitating on his armchair uniform, I’ll leave you to it.

Sorry, missed your plea. I agree - nationality is a construct, shouldn’t mean much. I similarly object to reading bile throughout the thread. I mostly lurk for the actual news but sometimes the non military commentary just gets too much.

I’m not calling any one a racist for anything more than what they type about other people. I want to see all involved in those murders brought to some sort of justice. It is not racist of Ukraine to defend itself and kill its invaders.

But that’s not what you keep typing. You just keep referring to Russians as an entire group. I can only take what you write at face value. The whole point of denazification is that it opens peoples eyes, because you accept that people are capable of much better than they’ve shown. Shame on them. A million times over. Because they should know better. But don’t degrade yourself by not respecting their fundamental humanity. Otherwise you don’t look much better than them.

No, you are a racist because you say all Russians are the same, that they are somehow intrinsically less than Ukrainians or others you deem “ok” in some way.

Kraze. I know it doesn’t suit your own apparently racist credo but read a bit more history please. Or stop posting your racist crap about all Russians being evil. I am not sure why it’s getting a free pass here. War criminals are war criminals and the Russian army and govt is clearly barbaric. It’s treatment of Ukrainian civilians is inhuman, unlawful and evil. It’s assault on Ukraine is equally illegal and morally wrong. The Russian public, like the post ww2 Germans, will have to face a reckoning with what they knew or didn’t want to. But if you think of them all as fundamentally evil, you’re just playing to Putin’s fascist crap about races and civilisational conflict. You start to sound like your own little putin. You prevent the redemption by Russians of their own country and make a repeat of this even more likely. You make Russian claims about Ukrainian nazis seem that little bit closer to the truth. Revolutions are not easy. They are usually not a single event and last a long period, with all sorts of interference from outside forces. They also continue being contested long after and between the actual fighting. History looks a lot simpler from far away. The EU’s revolutions that you suggest were done rather simply took hundreds of years. The US didn’t do it by itself either! France bankrupted itself supporting the US revolution.

And that is very similar to why things like metal armour were phased out. It started not offering enough protection for the cost required. Any weapon system is (I'm just guessing here - not an academic) subject to the cost/benefit ratio of several things, e.g.: a) performance in weapon/armour competition (is it lethal or protective enough), b) can it be used/trained easily (or does it need life-long training & conditioning, e.g. longbows), c) how much does it cost (can every soldier have it or only elites?). I guess you'd also add maintenance and logistics for anything since 1850, and even more for the high tech stuff in use now. It seems we were already in an age of armour transition/re-evaluation due to cost and vulnerabilities (even a few years ago where the Saudis lost some M1s to Houthi drones/ATMs in Yemen), but that's accelerating.