RMM
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Posts posted by RMM
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19 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:
@RMM We have WeGo and RTS. They could have something in between. The game pauses but you can only edit the units which were on hunt. Making suggestions is easy to rewrite the engine is not. Happy gaming ☺
Agreed. At the end of the day, one can but make requests and suggestions in the hopes that some may take hold.
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30 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:
When you make contact on hunt all your orders are automatically canceled. Shoot and scoot can easily be edited in all the other move orders. It all has to do with timing and experience.
Right, and I think we've lost something there from the previous Adv. to Contact order. Jabble makes some really good suggestions above.
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5 minutes ago, Jabble said:
As the reaction would happen at a particular waypoint, that could be the 'continue' waypoint no matter where the relocation went, i.e. the new path would start at the relocation point, next the 'continuation' point and then the rest of the original route. If they player decides they don't like that path any more because there's a huge tank in the way, just delete and make a new path. But no automatic following of the path should happen without an explicit instruction, so effectively they're permanently 'paused' at the relocation until told otherwise. That way if you forget issue instructions they won't just wander back into that danger area.
Well again, I think an automatic pause at the relocation point would take of that. The flip side is that I may (and do) want units to move forward in Hunt mode, taking their time to pay attention to their surroundings, but then, if they keep stopping every time they see a unit, regardless of it's later disappearing, I would want them to continue unless it were of a significant enough threat that the game already factors that into unit reactions.
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41 minutes ago, Jabble said:
That would be nice, at least for a painstakingly created sequence of moves, arcs and postures to not simply be lost. Within the timescale of a WEGO minute it's probably not realistic to automatically continue it, but it would be good if continuation was available during the next command phase.
Hopefully it would actually make such complicated move orders much more simple
43 minutes ago, Jabble said:However that may depend on the nature of the reaction - if a withdrawal follows a multi-step move, the unit may end up some distance from the original path - in which case to which waypoint would 'continue' lead? That's where it can get complicated and I suspect it would be simpler just to issue a new set of steps.
One would certainly have to set a limit beyond the original command path where it would be cancelled or put on hold.
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3 minutes ago, Jabble said:
The simplest solution would be a binary option based on some sort of qualifier: either stand and fight (like at present) or retreat to a predefined place, executing a move command. Such a reaction shouldn't necessarily be limited to scouts though, as equally any other unit without AT weapons may wish to retreat, so we're really just looking at a more developed reaction to a Hunt encounter.
What could complicate that is a 'glass cannon' nature where a unit may indeed be able to combat a tank - if it gets in the first shot - but lacks defence so thereafter would withdraw quickly. Such a situation would be similar to the 'shoot-and-scoot' idea of taking a shot and then relocating, the only difference being that isn't the result of a Hunt command.
Also, this reaction shouldn't necessarily be limited to tanks, e.g. a walking scout team encounters a larger infantry force so withdrawal is the best response. It sounds like we need a configurable threat response based on several factors, activated during a Hunt or simply being stationary.
Which then implies that a 'React' instruction may be the solution, requiring choice of a few parameters, which may be triggered whatever the unit is doing. If the instruction conditions are set up then a Hunting unit could, say, stand and fight, take a single shot then relocate, or relocate (flee) immediately. A stationary unit could do similar, e.g. an ATGM team would take the shot and then relocate.
As Hunt reaction and Shoot-and-Scoot both seem to be sought after, this would kill two birds with one stone.
One other suggestion I'd make for the Hunt order, is for the unit to continue to the original end of the path if contact is lost, because that's often where I'd like them to end up as long as it's not at the expense of getting hit!
Also, to that end, there used to be an 'Adv to Contact' order which the Hunt command replaced, but I think those are two different parameters:
If I have a unit hunting, then I would normally want them to continue the advance to the end of their assigned path if there's no contact, but if just Advancing to Contact, then they stop at that point and proceed to lay down as much fire as they can without any further consideration for movement. This is how the Hunt command operates now; HOWEVER, this due to the quirks of LoS, sometimes trying to figure out where to position a unit to where it can, finally see its intended target can take time and frustration. Whereas, if I could just issue such an order, the AI would manoeuver along the assigned path as needed to bring the target into view without my having to micro-manage the movement! If contact were not made, then the AI could be given some flexibility (as it is now) to position within a small radius of the end of that path sop as to bring the target into sight. That would be a HUGE help; although, perhaps a programmer's nightmare!
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23 minutes ago, Thewood1 said:
Its already been mentioned, but recon in CM doesn't work because the recon/scout unit has only a limited scope of reactions. Its either keep driving or stop when fired on. Of course die is also an option. There should be a scout order that lets a unit either reverse or seek cover immediately. In steel beasts, the scout SOP allows the unit several options, including reverse along the path just used, take a different pre-planned path, return fire, or move forward to cover. You can also set the orders to stay on the road or go off road.
CM should have at least a scout order. Its been asked for a few times, but its considered a low priority.
Good to know its at least been put on the radar and acknowledged then. Yeh, the current orders don't really do the job. Thanks for the insight though.
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5 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:
Yes thought I had it all figured out, fast speed unlikely to be hit. Then.... he drove on a mine.
Sometimes, ya just kannae win!
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37 minutes ago, Erwin said:
The problem is that unlike Patton's Recon guys, our pixeltruppen don't know what to do if they get shot at. If they are on HUNT, they immediately stop and make lovely targets. Speed is their only weapon and safety. In the open desert of CMSF it's good to run em FAST across the enemy front. It's hard to hit a fast-moving vehicle.
In WW2, as mentioned above, run em FAST down a road to a waypoint and have em REVERSE immediately. After i dunno how many hurs of playing and experimenting it's the best way to locate an enemy and have the recon vehicle stay alive. Nonetheless, they are always in significant danger of getting hit or KIA.
With ya there! I'll certainly be experimenting with that method as well as some others mentioned herein!
Am I only the only one who suffers from having to remind myself that this isn't RL with one chance; that do-overs are perfectly ok?
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2 hours ago, Freyberg said:
If you find that all units are spotting around the same, I wonder if it's because you're playing mainly at very close ranges..?
It simply isn't that hard to see a moving object at 300m, whether you have binoculars, cupola, naked eyes (in my case with some myopia) or whatever, so unless the target has begun the game hidden (assumed to be camouflaged) I'd expect most vehicles to be of similar capability at that range. The situation is very different at 1300m.
Right, well the thing is that the Recon AC's are just getting taken out by the hidden ATG's without even 'seeing' where they're firing from. I can obviously do some omniscient work of my own looking at the where they hot hit and the rough direction the shot came from, but when one has three out of five AC's burning after just two minutes, can't help but take a step and wonder if either I'm missing something or just need steep education in how to properly recon with such units.
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17 minutes ago, Thewood1 said:
This is a good report on recon through the ages. Its lengthy, but worth the read if hung up on "realistic" recon operations. Osprey also has a couple good books dedicated to recon tactics in WW2.
https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Portals/7/combat-studies-institute/csi-books/scouts_out.pdf
I tried to attach it as a PDF, but NFC says it only allows 22k attachments.
The type of recon assets most scenarios include wouldn't normally be in a full on battle in WW2. CM-level The recon assets are more for recon vs recon, recon vs screen, or scenarios where spotting a unit gives you points. That's if recon assets are used properly. But true recon assets were rarely used that way in WW2. They were used as screen or flank protection. Many times used as reserves.
That's quite the read, but I've downloaded it and thanks for taking the time to do that!
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37 minutes ago, domfluff said:
Dismounting crew to recce is standard doctrine everywhere, and there is nothing weird about it.
While I can see the Commander getting out, I would have thought it odd for the entire crew, but that's a game limitation rather than RL I expect. it is an interesting tactic, and I'm planning on trying it in the game; although not with all the crews. Maybe just a couple!
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43 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:
If you're playing a single-player scenario, you can actually use light AFVs to scout in some cases.
Say you're approaching a bridge and there are some buildings close to it. You want to find out if there are infantry in there.
So you start by opening up your scout car at around 600m distance and see if they start shooting at you. If they do, you have a pretty good chance of them missing at that range.
If they don't you then drive slowly closer till about 400m using HUNT.
If they still don't shoot, you button up and drive up to just within bazooka/schreck range.
If they still don't fire, you drive up to about 100m range and see if they fire rifle grenades at you.
If they don't you drive up to 50m and at that range, you can probably spot them inside the buildings if they are in there.
If the buildings are empty then you just wasted a lot of time...
Murphy's Law of CM dictates that every time you are careful, the buildings will be empty, and vice versa.
I think I can attest to that particular law
!
That's some very good rules of thumb; although there really sin't any 'slowly' move using Hunt. Vehicles seem to move on that command at the same speed as Quick, which was something I commented on in the beginning. In Hunt, they really should be moving at speeds more akin to slow or certainly no faster than Move!
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6 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:
I don't know about the modern games, but I'm sure they are very different. I'm only playing WW2. Probably should have mentioned that.
I'm only considering WW2 era things too.
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5 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:
In CM, scout cars and other light armour are not really for scouting on their own, but for adding fire support to your outer infantry screen as it advances.
Without the light armour, your thin infantry screen would often be unable to push forward against MGs in houses etc. Concentrating your infantry makes it vulnerable to mortars. But scout cars carry just enough firepower and armour to overcome those defences.
If you used your main tanks for this, your opponent could then trade revealing an AT gun for taking out one of your tanks. This would be a good trade, as a Sherman costs more than double the points of a PAK40. However, trading a PAK for a scout car is a bad deal, as the car costs a bit less than the PAK (and the attacker has more points anyway, making it an even worse deal).
This is why having infantry AT rifles can be an advantage. It forces the attacker to commit heavier tanks earlier on, before having much intel.
At least this is how I see it.
This seems to be the spot the game finds itself in. It have been better for the designer to introduce infantry units first rather than the recon AC's.
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5 minutes ago, BornGinger said:
I read a book by a Canadian with German ancestry who became a tank commander in a German panzer divison. He sometimes mentioned how he left the tank to try to find out what they had in front of them. So it's not so bizarre compared to real life during that time. It's probably different today.
Oh yeh, I've read plenty of such accounts. Again, I was referring to the idea of the entire crew dismounting. Yes, it was common for tank commanders, assuming a significant enough distance from any known threat and a large vista to overlook to get out. Granted
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1 hour ago, Freyberg said:
I haven't noticed that to be true in the WWII titles...
That would be correct, since these recon units were specifically for ... just that. So one would hope that their spotting is better!
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11 minutes ago, Falaise said:
When I want to keep the anti-tank ammunition, to avoid this problem I divide the team and I give an armored firing arc to the anti-tank team
Agreed; although, I've found that assigning an armoured CA also keeps them from firing their inherent weapons at all, unless, presumably, enemy infantry units are right ontop of them, and that's frustrating in and of itself! In this case, it was dedicated, 2-man bazooka team, so there was no dividing it up.
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22 minutes ago, Thewood1 said:
Is it?
Strategic recon was done with vehicles because of the distances. The best were specialized armored cars that had good comms and were quiet. They would move down roads and look for signs of activity and not just barrel into a town.
Now for scouting, that is usually done on foot and is typically local for gathering intel for imminent contact. A jeep might drop a team off, but far enough away from possible contact so as not to get nailed or be heard.
The exceptions were when a unit was in a hurry and being pushed or they had intel that the way ahead was clear (from strategic recon).
All true. I was referring to an armoured car crew dismounting and reconning on foot. I'm not sure that would be true to RL at all. As you say though, such units would normally be used for longer much range recon though, so the situation the beginning of this campaign puts them in (pretty short range at coupla hundred mtrs) is also not true to form though
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Just now, Erwin said:
You may have a point. Probably another of those weird and odd behaviors that the CM system exhibits from time to time.
Oh, for sure. Hence, I posted as a feature request. I expect it would be a difficult fix, since the game system would have to identify, the surface of the target type before deciding on firing, but it would definitely make a good shift towards RL and thereby much improve the game's enjoyability.
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2 minutes ago, Erwin said:
I generally only play campaigns and got to Letzte Hoffnung Mission 8 b4 getting distracted by other issues. So, I know what you are talking about. But Mission 1 was played so long ago I can't recall the specific mission challenges. Basically, as others have said:
1) If distances are not great, Recon vehicles can dismount and use the crew on foot.
2) If one has a long road to explore I usually have a recon vehicle move FAST to the next bend or potential ambush spot and then (immediately) have the unit reverse back to a safer position that is 25m-75m further advanced from the original start position. Repeat until the unit runs into something. Yes, the unit can get KIA or suffer crew casualties, but most of the time, the rapid movement will trigger an unsuccessful ambush - that is the info you want.
Excellent, thanks
I've basically decided to start again, so will have to take the time to explore and develop these ideas and tips
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3 hours ago, Erwin said:
It seems that the HEAT round was explosive and used vs inf/MG nests etc.
Yes, it was, and as the Wikipedia article mentions, it could be used against such targets as long as you had a surface (behind which they were covering) to strike it against. This made for a great bunker-buster weapon accordingly. My issue with what happened in my game was that one of my Bazooka teams started firing it at infantry running in the open, made doubly frustrating, because I knew there was armour coming and needed them to reserve the ammo for that.
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3 hours ago, Erwin said:
Good point. It may depend on whether it's WW2 era or modern (and which nationality). I would assume modern and western would have more flexibility.
Yeh, this is definitely in regard to WW2 era SCW's. Modern weaponry I'm not so familiar with, but I would imagine they've improved!
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4 hours ago, George MC said:
Or dismount crew and move to good place to observe.
If close terrain then dismounts better.
Novel but I like it! Kinda bizarre compared to RL, but even the best game is going to have its quirks. Got me thinking now for sure
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4 hours ago, z1812 said:
4. When you deploy your infantry give them a target arc so they won't fire and give their position away. I usually use a very small round one.
5. Then I use a move or quick command to move them a little closer to where I want them.
6. I use the slow command to sneak them into the final over watch position.
These are good ideas. Specially when in the bocage of BfN, I use that process all the time (either Slow/Crawl or Hunt) to have infantry and vehicles move he last few yards up to the hedegrow.
How to - Recon with AFV's?
in Combat Mission - General Discussion
Posted
What's that thread please, because I've been posting these 'Feature Request' strings, since I couldn't find one. I'll start posting such things there too, but yes, it's fun to debate them here too.
I don't know that pause and edit really would become laborious to be honest, certainly not as long as one were to also incorporate the automated reactions we've discussing herein. I don't play RTS either, least not since Total War games, but there a real, definite need for proper automated reactions in that for sure!
I agree that the current Hunt command doesn't seem to really spot or hunt all that well when it comes to vehicles. As I mentioned previously, vehicles move at the same speed in that as the Quick command, which is quite different from how infantry do it. I get the impression that vehicles don't really hunt any differently than normal, Quick movement.