DMS
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Posts posted by DMS
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I made tests in CMRT. 122mm destroy wire, but can't fully clear a minefield. May be some mines are destroyed, as soldiers passed with few losses. You need to concentrate fire, just 2-3 near hits are not enough.
Modern Russian sappers have UR-77 vehicle for clearing minefields. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FZOu5TcQBo
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By the way, is it possible to destroy mines and wire by artillery/tank fire in the game? I tried, unsuccessfully.
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11 hours ago, StieliAlpha said:
I would not say, the photos show that there is enough space to hide. As you say, there is barely enough space for one man. Imaging crouching behind the thin shield, trying not expose your body, hearing MG bursts rattling the shield, bullets zipping by, ricocheting left and right, dust and stones being kicked-up and flying around. Put a second layer of “normal” battle din onto that. I, certainly, would be impressed, eh, suppressed and would not try to act as hero.
For 2 men, gunner and loader. Loader assistant is exposed, like commander and other crewmembers.
Well, gunner in Stummel is also behind the thin shield, slightly exposed... Like gunner in Su-76, Hanomag e.t.c. If armor is not penetrated, gunner would fire back, I think. As Russian military theoretic Dragomirov said, "Ineffective fire just encourages the enemy". PPSh rounds are deadly at 200m, but from 400m it sounds like a "derp gun" and won't pin down anybody. For supression real danger is essential.
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On 7/2/2018 at 5:10 PM, IanL said:
One other thing you can do in the editor is use the percentage casualty option. 70% strength three man scout team usually ends up as 2 men.
I wish we would have this option in quick battles. I would use it very often, 6 DPs in platoon is a gamey a little. I like the firepower, but feel like in easy mode... (And "1944" TO&E has too much men in squad)
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On 6/30/2018 at 12:19 AM, sburke said:
That was just one example of how this becomes impractical pretty quickly from their view
Yeah, my suggestion must be naive... If it wasn't made for many years that game exists, there are reasons.
5 hours ago, Badger73 said:In any Quick Battle or Scenario Edit, one can always delete unwanted unit elements down to squad level and add whatever and however may special teams as one desires.
Yes, I do like that sometimes! When I wanted to make a city assault group I took 1943 rifle company, deleted squads and added scout teams, lmg teams, sappers, snipers, tanks. Not 100% historically correct, (must be 6 men smg squads) but pretty close.
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On 6/30/2018 at 11:15 PM, George MC said:
Thats an interesting action. It would appear they ID the targets then unseen dug in the guns and then proceeded to take out the GermanMG posts by sniping them.
Re how close is to close?
Regiment defended position for half a year. They were sending recon groups, that spotted every German MG nest. There were some minor engagements, once German outpost spotted recon group on the minefield and shot them with mg. 3 men were killed, recon platoon leader and political worker amongst them. So German positions were well known. Probably they set guns in somewhat like keyhole positions between trees to engage a given target, though it is just my guess. I don't know how effective sniper fire was... "16 Germans were killed" should be read as "16 aimed shots were made". Though they could make Germans to keep low.
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=100798650
On 6/30/2018 at 11:15 PM, George MC said:I’m stil if the view that moving later got AT gins (or any AT gun) into position in LOG of any enemy unit is asking for trouble. Moving the gun would expose the crew way more than them crouching behind the shield I think.
I’d still say if moving guns forward with infantry you’d have to be doing it with the enemy suppressed or under cover (smoke/terrain).
In several PBEM battles I tried to use AT guns to support battalion attack. I used 76, 122 divisional guns, 120 regimental mortars... Guns were moving far behind infantry... And still 1 surviving MG managed to lay a killing burst on the gun in every battle! They attract fire. It is correct and 100% realistic for large guns, but small 45mm... (And regimental cannon on it's base) I don't know, may be I have a little bias as I usually play for Soviet rifle units.
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On 6/24/2018 at 10:07 PM, JoMc67 said:
Also, if you purchase CMRT, then you will see a big discrepancy in how many SMG's, SVT's and the lack of Bolt-Rifles in a Soviet/Russian Rifle Squad compared to what it should be
Number of SMGs is correct and slightly bellow historicall number. IRL 1 of 3 platoons were armed by SMGs and MGs only. In 1943, before Kursk battle, some divisions had more SMGs than rifles! What about SVTs - correct, realistic number would be 1-2 in squad in the best case.
In general, it would be great if game would have TO&E editor. Tables changed dramatically in different units, (in Eastern front - for sure) it is impossible to make single TO&E that is correct for most units.
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On 6/28/2018 at 10:52 AM, George MC said:
Would the guns in the above scheme not have been dug in and camouflaged? If they are that close to the Germans, and the Germans know they are there I'm pretty sure they'd be targets for mortar/arty fire?
Probably they were. I was very lucky and found regimental journal for this days! (Regimental documents are rare, unlike divisional)
"Batteries of ИПП (AT regiment) and ПА (regimental artillery) fired by direct lay at targets №35, 37, 32, 39, 40 and 101. Results: target 37 is destroyed, targets 35, 38, 39 49 and 101 are damaged. Ammo used - 120, mortar ammo - 134. Snipers destroyed 16 Germans."
"Regiment made engineer work entrenching forward line. Enemy shelled forward line of defense. Ammo used - 80. Losses: wounded - 1."
It was usual positional war, not assault... Snipers overclaimed results, of course.
QuoteI'm not sure of the context though in the above scheme i.e. how they guns got to be where they are. AI said moving guns forward, at close range, in plain sight of an unsuppressed enemy is asking for trouble in-game and in RL I think. Whether MGs are there or not.
Correct! But how much close is too close?
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Just now, George MC said:
I know this was a tactic the Soviets used - hence why the Germans were very keen to counterattack as soon possible before the Soviets loaded the AO with PAK. But I'm sure they were not doing this in full sight of unsuppressed enemy MGs.Perhaps you need to rethink your tactics and try not to do it in full sight and 500m from an unsuppressed enemy?
Guns not just moved behind, but usually supported infantry attack by direct lay fire. First scheme that I found in pamyat-naroda.ru:
"Scheme of battle positions for direct lay fire". 23.10.1942. 268 rifle regiment. Side of the square is 1 km. As you see, distance to German positions is 400-700m. It wouldn't be possible, if German mgs would be effective against guns at 500m, right?
Just now, gundolf said:I always seem to run into that flak 88 with 1 crewman left that manages to maintain a decent ROF and gets a few KO shots on me.
Right! It seems that flak gunner is coded to ignore supression when he is seeing target. Shield is 9mm, sloped at 30 degrees to vertical. Thicker, than M-42's, but not too much...
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7 hours ago, George MC said:
Your test proves that point because at best all you can hope to do is suppress the AT crew - which again given the size of the gun shield appears correct as at best only two people are right behind the shield - everyone else is either side with less protection (assuming the gun is not dug in).
I didn't wait until crew is dead. Crewmen were dying 1 in 1-2 minutes at average. Gunner usually dies first, he hides not enough close to the shield. As a result, gun doesn't fire back.
I think that gunner is almost in safe and shouldn't be supressed so much...
Why this is important in my opinion? Because historical tacticks of Red Army is missed: accompanying infantry "on wheels" by artillery. (In cities and in the open ground) German armor countered Soviet offences, and soviets moved AT guns after the infantry lines. (Soviet guns were light enough for that) When I try to do this in the game, AT guns are quickly supressed by few mg bursts and then are destroyed...
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45mm anti tank gun had 7mm shield set at 45 degrees. 7 : cos 45 = 9,9.
Penetration for usual 7,92mm ammo: 8mm at 100m, 3,5mm at 500m. (30 degrees)
Penetration for AP 7,92: 13mm at 100m, 7,5mm at 500m. (30 degrees)
So, after 500m ap mg round wouldn't penetrate gun shield. Usual MG ammo would hardly penetrate it after 100m. In the book of W. Schneider "Panzer Tactics" I found following scheme.
I made some tests, setting 3 lmgs against 2 guns at 500m. MGs easily supress crew...
Some photos to show that there was enough space to hide behind the shield. (At least for gunner and loader)
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Russian infantry TOE is strange...
"Somewhere in late ‘43 the company lost its third platoon. But this was reinstated in ‘44 and instead the regiment lost a battalion"
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1 hour ago, Aragorn2002 said:
I must confess I misunderstood your comments. I did have the impression that you were complaining about how everybody seems to take sides against Russia and all that it stands for. And that this movie about the Russian history was the only one called a myth. But you meant that there are more myths than just the sniper duel in this particular movie. I understand that now, but after reading your comments, I did take a look at your profile, in which as location 'Soviet Union' is mentioned. For me that's about the same as "Third Reich' or 'Democratic Kampuchea'.
That combined with the fact that you live in a country which hasn't been interested in the truth in past, present or future, made me angry.
I know how good is my English.
Unusual parallels...
Just now, Sublime said:You truly believe no one was shot under that order?
Of course they was. But... That myth about machineguns shooting at running soldiers is too primitive, stupid, hugely hyperbolised. That didn't happen in such way. Block units officers executed single men, if they refused to fight and agitated others to flee. They were not just behind the rifle units, but in the rear: at road intersections, towns. The scale of war was huge, millions men were involved, may be someone somewhere shot at the crowd, who knows. But showing it like a common event is false. Another myth in this movie, 1 mosins for 2 men... Yes, in 1941 RKKA had problems with small arms. But this means that platoons had only 2 mgs instead of 4. (In 1942 3 mgs, in 1943 - 6) Again, too stupid hypebole. May be somewhere conscripts were caught without arms by quickly advancing Germans, that happened in 1941. But that they were intentionally sent to combat without weapons... I hate such "creative" writers and movie makers.
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6 minutes ago, Sublime said:
uh sorry USSR shooting its own soldiers is a verifiable fact.
When, where? I know only 1 fact from Loza book, wheh his tank fired over heads, than lower. And someone fell. And that is not exactly "fact", as it is memoirs.
In movie it is shown like a typical, common event. That is obviously not true.
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3 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:
You really do still live in the Soviet Union, as mentioned in your profile. Did you even read the whole article?
I read it again after your comment and still I found nothing about other nonsence in this film. (And that nonsence is much brighter, than sniper duel! Sniper duels occured, while 1 rifle for 2 soldiers and mgs, shooting in own troops - did not. That's why I said that it is fun) And I don't undestand how my profile is connected to the article.
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It is fun that only myth in "War in the gates" in sniper duel, according to his opinion.
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30 minutes ago, Kozlice said:
"1 up" rule is literally from Red Thunder manual, not that you can't play it the way you want, just sayinnn
That has reason, as attack formations of rifle divisions really were very narrow. 2-2,5 km for division, 500-600m for 1-st echelone battalion, 250-300 for company. But... That companies were smaller IRL. (At average. Sometimes not) In the game with 100% strength units you can use wider formations, I think. Or you will suffer huge casualties from mortarts and hmgs because of over concentration.
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On 31.05.2018 at 7:29 PM, DerKommissar said:
A general rule of thumb for Red Army is that everything is moved up 1 level in hierarchy. For the Allies or Germans you mostly get radios at platoon -- for Red Army, you get them at company. If you have a job that you would intend for a platoon, in other armies, it's a job for a company. Job for a company -- that's a job for a battalion. Same applies for armoured units.
Not exactly. Companies don't have radios, MG ammo is limited unlike German squad. (SMG ammo also) That's why companies are 1-task only. 1-st company (or 1-st 2 companies) atack 1-st trench line, next company attacks 2-nd trenchline, next battallion goes deep, e.t.c.
In real life Soviet units were always understrength, 15-men platoons, 50-men companies. So "up 1 level" rule was correct for small units. In the game player commands full strength units, so this rule doesn't work. 1943 platoon with 6 mgs is powerfull, nearly equals to panzergrenadier platoon.
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Just now, Aragorn2002 said:
That's pushing it a bit, I think. Many German soldiers used the PPSH, but realism has it's limits in a game.
There were really many panzerfausts, that were captured during urban fights... But yes, in general it's too loose assumption. May be for city assault groups formations only.
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Great news!
On 01.06.2018 at 7:38 AM, Battlefront.com said:- Soviets didn't change much after Bagration because, well, they didn't need to! Plus, it would have been very disruptive to do so. However, there's still a few new things we can give you to play with. The big one is the Lend Lease armed tank forces sporting Valentines and Shermans.
Well, there were some changes - assault groups formations for urban combat, active using of static flamethrowers (FOG-2).
Will you change Rifle battallion OOB, particulary SMG platoons in companies? (As variant "B", like in CMBB) May be new OOB variant for understrength battalions, with less men and more automatic weapons? (Typical Red army rifle division was understrength in 1945, up to 50%.) And captured panzerfausts! They were massively used against buildings.
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Is 5,56 ballistics good enough at >500 metres? Does longer barrel really help? In Russia RPK-74 is considered useless by many...
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Kholkoz workers were collective owners of the business, so they did care.
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23 hours ago, Sublime said:
Perhaps. And yes I know I didnt cite any sources but this is a fairly well written about subject and I.ve always read it was pretty commonplace. This WAS the army that placed blocking units to machine gun running friendlies.
If I may enquire about your sources, were they printed in the Soviet era? Even post Soviet era there can be a lot of bias. For example here in America the general public basically that doesnt get into WW2 basically sees WW2 as a US show ignoring the late entry to the war, etc.
It is official data. With the date 1.10.1944. I can't give you a scan of a document, but I am sure my source is correct. It was Russian language article, I didn't want to copy untranslated text.
Machinegunning running friendlies is another myth. Penalty units just stood on roads in the rear (not just behind the frontline trenches) and checked deserters, possible spies, locals. Functions of military police. The war was huge, I can't give 100% gurantee that penalty units never used their MGs against running friendly infantry. Who knows. But the standard procedure was to stop the unit, in bad case to shot "panicers" (person who agitates men to flee) Using pistol or rifle, of course, not machiengunning crowd of soldiers like in movies.
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Numbers are known, on the 1.10.44 6,07 % were sent to penalty units, 3,81% were arrested. Others were sent to army or to industry. Since november 1944 ex-POWs were sent directly to rear army units, not to filtrarion camps. Officers were sent to penalty units much more often than privates, 36% against 0,86%. (Russian historian Pyhalov) So you can see how myths differ from reality.
Basements?
in Combat Mission - General Discussion
Posted
Germans made bunkers from wooden houses in Russia. The whole villages were remade in strongpoints. MG was set in basement, 1-st store was used for observing.