militarysta

Hi! Well, ours Leo2A4 is the best what met polish Land Force in last 15yers... 1. We didn't bought this Leo2 - Germany gave us 128 Leopard2A4 with full service, supply, vehicles, ammo for only 1 Euro. Of course there where some costs - but for lest then 128-150mln zł ( ~50mln UDS) Germans gave us complete equipment for 10 Tank Bde in Świentoszów. What is most important - Germans trained us, taught us, and assured shooting training for more then one year - 10TkBde had german offciers, commanders, and - MILES - this was a revolution in traverse (poligon - траверс?) Ours Leopard2A4 where used in only 15-20%, and what is most important - about 40-50% of them are improved Tanks whit improved armour... This brigade is armed, trained, prepared in the best germans standards - now this 116 Leopard2A4 is only good tanks in Polish Army. Of course this 116 Leo2A4 are serviced at germans rulles - the same about trening - propably this is source of sukces :-) Unfortunetley Polish Army is far from perfect, but some "A" category units are well equipment and trained. 2. Polish PT-91. There are two difrent tanks, whit simillar marks: a) PT-91 PT-91MZ/E ("Malaj" and "Eksport") First is basick (in armour) T-72M1, whit new 1000HP S-1000 engine (good power, theriblle combustion of fuel...), and new FCS "Drawa" whit Israel thermo ( it is terrible - about 40% cameras is generally inefficient :-/) In theory it is good tank - without armour it should be simmilar to T-72BW. But it's not... Problems: - we haven't good APFSDS amo. BM-15 and BM-22 is sh*** and polish/israeli "PRONIT" whit 540-560mm RHA for 2000m was developed, but is not in service yet...becouse in generals opinnion 125mm gun in Poland haven't future (standard NATO is 120mm) - so they don't bought amo... - barrel - many years ago Slovak factory "ZS Dubnica" made some part of barrel in "scond" quality. Our genius in middle 90. bought it like "super occasion". Now many of this barrel have not 125 but 126-128mm! But "125mm gun in Poland haven't future (standard NATO is 120mm)" - so they don't bought new barrels for PT-91... Stupid? Welcome in Poland - FCS "Drawa" is very, very good (like SAVAN-15(!)) but when PT-91 were build they don't change stabilization and "guidance mechanisms guns" (i haven't good word) - theribble thermo form israel (erly 90.) - theriblle combustion of fuel polish S-1000 is good engine, but fuel combustion... ex: 58 PT-91 in traverse (poligon - траверс?) "eat' more fuel then 64 Leopard2A4 whit 1500HP engine.... PT-91MZ - without armour is good tank - similar to T-90S but whit better engine and transmision. Well on PT-91MZ/E cost ~3mln USD. Poland got 128 Leo2A4 whit complete facilities (amo, wehicles, spare parts) for less then ~50mln USD. And Leo2A4 is better in ALL parameters then PT-91MZ/Ex... That's reson. ps. It's only one side...second - in that times in Poland where "Kaczyńscy" brother goverment. There where idiots. They were all bad - EU (to less catholicks) Russia - for reasons of history, Germany - for reasons of history (and they destroyed Warshaw during II WW). So for political reasons not acquired a second batch of free machines for "Germanic torturers". Thanks Good one brother (jaroslaw) where sucked after parliamentary elections and second died in plane crash.

Ok - here you are: It's look nice, but we shoud remeber about HEAT vs. armour. After Youm Kippur panic western armour designe was developed to stop big, and pretty good Soviet ATGMs and GLATMG, and BK-xx family. for ex: Gemrman DM-12 round can panetrate ~700mm RHA but only 400-450mm "cobhan style" German armour. Of course i'm not thinking about "Cobhan" but similar german solution in Leo2. it is almost certain that "insert" in Leo2A4 was ~1,3 vs. HEAT. So if we have in Leo2A4: 200mm RHA (50mm + 150mm) + 600mm x 1,3/1,35 it's give us ~200mm + 780 = 980mm vs HEAT(!) in fornt of turret Of course mantle is only ~475mm vs HEAT, "box" after EMES-15 is ~ 750mm vs HEAT, and side of the turret in 30. is ~810mm vs HEAT. Well it's preety good protection - isn't it? Well...HEAT is not good solution in taht way...or I'm make a mistake and it's not 1,3. But test DM-12 in Germany (and in Poland in 10TkBde) was clear: 700mm RHA ~400-450mm "coban style" armour (insert) in Leopard2. oh, and here is final Leo2 vs. APFSDS protection. As we can see it's far from perfect, but...it's ok - armour is only one element. BTW: Leopard2 is very good tank for any estimates becouse we know many things about Leo2. Current Leopard 2 users and used versions: Germany: 125 A5, 225 A6 (70 A6M, 20 on loan to Canada), 45 A4 (+ ~150-200 A4 stock) Netherlands: 82 A6 (+ 20 A4, 28 A6 reserve) Switzerland: 134 Panzer87 WE, (+ 246 A4 reserve) Sweden: 120 A5+ (Strv 122, 10 mineprotected 122B), 154 A4 (6 A4 rebuilt to CEV Kodiak) Spain: 108 A4, 219 A6+ (Leopardo 2E) Denmark: 57 A5+ Greece: 196 A4, 170 A6+ (Leopard 2HEL) Norway: 52 A4 Austria: 114 A4 Finland: 91 A4 (20 A4 rebuilt as CEV/AVLB, 12 spares, 1 loss) Poland: 128 A4 Turkey: 298 A4 Chile: 132 A4 (8 as spares) Singapore: 102 A4 (30 as spares) Canada: 40 A6M, 42 A4+ (8 as ARV/CEV/AVLB, 10 spares) Portugal: 38 A6 So we heve 16 Leo2 users, and w heven't so terrible OPSPEC like in M1A2/CR2 or Leclerck2.... btw2: there is mistake "Poland: 128 A4" it's not true. 116Leo2A4 in 10TkBde 8 Leo2 in "tank school" 1 in museum 1-3(?) well... a very sensitive issue - Germans give Poland 128 Leopard2 but the contract provides: a) they will by not polish "addons" on Leo2 Leopard will be have service on german rules c) no one will check what is "insert" leo2A4 armour. - of coure our "genius" in OBRUM Gliwice broke this point and opened the armor to check what is the composition of the "insert". Of course German's where in furious... about year of manufacture polish Leopard2: 6 tank - 1985, (Leo2A3 mod to 2A4) 96 - 1986, ( Leo2A4 "erly" and some "late" leo2A4 with improved armour, but how many?) 26 - 1987, (Leo2A4 "late" series - improved armour)

For my it is good idea on Ukrainian on Russian "step" (fields?). But not in Western Europe. In Poland range of fire is limited by terrein in 98% to only 1500m... In Fulda gap is it 1300m. (96%) So Refleks, Invar, Świr, etc ar uslles in Western Europe - sabot is faster. That is reson why on West (Germany, England, USA, France) there is no GLATGM in Tanks. Of course in desert GLATGM is ok -but not in Europe.

Ok, so here are APFSDS/HEAT without this mistake: @Damian - I'm correct mistakes @Alex OTVAGA2004? Ok, im really interested what they will say:-)

As said Damian: "Turret electro-hydraulic stabilisation system was replaced by lighter fully electric system. Sight is same, EMES-15. In west as many things possible are made from lightweight materials" Gemans Leo2A5/A6 ar not Strv.122 Leo2A6HEL or Loe2A6E. Germans tank haven't addons on turret top or hull. Electric system are rather light. ex: New PERI-17A2 (Ophelios) have less weight then old PERI-17... In my opinnion this free 3000kg takes new mantle and new insert... I count it man times - 3000kg is "free" so - where it is? In my opinon - only in armour. ps. Oplot-M' panoramic sight mass is 400kg - it's not suprise it is terrible big Tungsten + RHA with molibden (alloy steel with molybdenum) of course it is OPSPEC but some peoples says that Tungsten is used... i don't know. DU is not only good material. There are in service? "apparently" 3BM48 have ~650mm RHA but if im right only new T-90A wit longer casette in auto coud have it - im right? GSPO? :-) In my opinnion it's propably the best tank forum, well but there is small problem with my "estimates" - they have some mistake. I shoud improved it for Leopards etc. But if You want - ok :-) BTW: Im really interesting how Andriej/Harkonnen explain his fake about total 65cm Leo2A4 LOS... Two my freind mesure lef side of turret (80-85cm), im count it (75-80cm) -so i'havent any doubt. But im really interested why Andriej always said 65, 65 65, 65 (bla bla bla)... EDIT: of course He always coud said "I have my sources" but it's not answer :-) I'm think he have some plans/estimates for Leopard-2AV or Leopard2A1 - this famoues photo of "nacked" Leo2 is Leo2A1. But there is big difrence between Lep2A1 and Leo2A3... ex: mantle in Leo2A3 (42cm) is 30% more thick then in Leo2A1 (25cm)... So if He have dates for Leo2Av/A1 - 65cm coud be. But for Leo2A3/A4 it's fake @Damian - hi!

Hello :-) 1. Sorry for my terrible english. 2. There was a small mistake in APFSDS diagram. Of course BM42 have ~460-480mm RHA for 2000m 90. So the correct diagram look that: About HEAT round (USA, Soviet/Russia, Germany) btw: DM-12 realy have 650mm RHA. During polish test in 10TkBde ( Świętoszów), i was hard to believe, but old DM-12 really have this 650mm+ RHA. Of course it have only ~450-500mm RHA on Cobhan-style armour. About Leopards. Well there is a problem with right side of turret. The only thing I am sure is that: Problem is here: Right and left turret armour have the same LOS - between 75-80cm. There is only "window" for EMES-15. And about wedges in Leo2A5/A6. Im my opinnion there are only "addon". All is about weight: (without amo&fuel) Leo2A4 - 52t Leo2A5 -57,3t Leo2A6 (German) - 57,6t Leo2A6M - 60,2t (combat) Leo2A4 - 55,15t Leo2A5 -59,5t Leo2A6 (German) - 59,9t Leo2A6M - 62,5t turret weight: Leo2A4 - 16t Leo2A5/A6 - 21t Best: diffrence beetwen Lh-44 and Lh-55: Lh44 is 3780kg Lh55 to 4160kg so there is only + 380kg for Leo2A6 wedges weight is 500kg for one (so two is 1000kg) Ok, so with some reserve we can say that Lh-55+wedges take only ~1500kg. So without this 1,5t the diffrence between Leo2A4 and Leo2A5/A6 is 3500kg! In my opinion the insert was changed for a new with higher density. If You have any questions just ask - i will try (with my broken english :-)) answer.